Sky treat Irish badly

[Billy Dane]

There is a letter in today's Herald which I agree with totally. It says that we are paying more in Ireland than they are in Britain but we get less channels. Maybe we should get a campaign going to be treated the same? Are there emails I could write to at Sky to protest?

[Brian O'D]

Yeah, I seen that letter. I believe it was sent by a member of a website forum where the members have been talking about this for months and months and, finally, it has got further than that site's pages. And there is a good reason for this. The whole thing is based on a falsehood and a campaign is, based on what was outlined in the letter, a non-starter.

First of all, it is both technically and factually incorrect to say that we pay more for less channels. We actually receive more channels for our Sky subscription, not less, than our friends in the UK. We receive RTE1, N2, TV3 and TG4 as part of our sub. Technically, we also receive BBC1 and 2 for what they raid our bank account for.

In the UK, Sky Digital viewers receive the BBC channels (incl BBC4, Choice, News 24 and the other BBC brands) because they are UK licence-holders. As part of this arrangement they also receive ITV, Ch4 and Ch5. To receive these channels, they do not pay a penny more than equipment costs and the annual licence fee. In other words, even if they were not subscribed to Sky and had never financed that organisation, they would receive these channels via Sky Digital because it is their right as UK citizens. We can bleat all we like in this country - and we are proving how spoilt we are by doing just that - but we are not entitled to receive these channels. And it seems that the efforts to clear the rights to broadcast via satellite to this country have stumbled either because they are too costly or not worth the hassle involved.

The only grumble Irish subscribers MIGHT have is in the case of Big Brother interactive coverage on E4. As Irish viewers are being fed an Irish advertisements-sponsored version of the channel, it seems that Channel 4's desire to bleed their Irish viewers using E4 has resulted in it being technically impossible to give us interactive services. As far as BBC interactive goes, the rights in general have only been cleared for a UK audience.

I, for one, am bloody grateful that in a digital age where what we view can be controlled by the flick of a switch, that Sky have recognised that there is enough of a market here for them to push for UK AND Irish clearance for their channels. We have managed to get BBC1 and 2. ITV, Ch4 and Ch5 would be nice, but if we continue to moan that we are not even happy with the versions of BBC we've been given, Sky and the other UK broadcasters might just feel that we will never be happy and are more hassle than we are worth.

Then we'd ALL have something to campaign about!

[Mike]

Given that we are supposed to be living in a single European market how come then people in the Republic can watch Breman regional TV free of charge and with little difficulty and yet are ACTIVELY PREVENTED from watching BBC 4 EVEN IF THEY ARE WILLING TO PAY £112stg PER YEAR TO THE BBC. Even the basic BBC1 and 2 are only available to subscribe to a load of $py channels they dont necessairly want.

RTE go to great lengths to enable people in a certain part of the United Kingdom can recieve their channels despite all the arguments about copyright (UTV and Channel 5 hold the UK rights to some programmes shown by RTE) and the fact that RTE dont recieve a penny of licence fee revenue from North of the border.

The fact remains that a satellite viewer in Lifford or Blacklion is much worse off than a one a few yards away in Strabane or Belcoo. This is discrimination on the grounds of Nationality and its high time the EU intervened

[Brian O'D]

We can watch Bremen regional tv for the same reasons as we cannot watch most Dutch and Scandanavian channels. Programme distributors sell their product on the basis of language and territories. Like it or not, there is an increased demand for English programming. Obviously, the majority of people in the EU speak English as their second language, but much more importantly - apart from those who speak the substituted language - there is no demand for English language programming dubbed into a foreign language. Most German channels dub their foreign product. The German channels that subtitle English language programmes, in the same way as most Dutch and Scandanavian channels, are required by the distributors to prevent viewers outside their territories from viewing.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but certain bought-in RTE programming is blanked out on cable in the north because of rights clearance. And it is precisely this very reason that RTE is not yet available to Sky Digital viewers in the north. The unique situation in this partitioned country of ours is the reason why RTE do their utmost to broadcast to the north. On one level they are claiming back what they feel is rightfully theirs. They also want to serve nationalists, I assume it is the public service aspect coming out in them. If they had the lawful right to collect a licence from 'foreigners' living in a 'foreign state', they bloody would!

In summary, the EU are not who you should campaign to. It is the programme distributors. However, can you really see them agreeing to sell to one unified territory (the UK and Ireland) when they can sell to two?

[JDxtra]

I never read the letter in the Irish Times, but I do strongly believe Sky digital subscribers in Ireland are being done by. Although in the last year things have improved (BBC1 & 2, RTE etc).

I think it's just not on the way NTL & Chorus can relay UTV and Channel 4... and Sky cannot! I know it's not the fault of Sky, ITV and Channel 4 are just not playing ball! :)

If it were really due to rights issues (which ITV and Channel 4 seem to say all the time) then the channels SHOULD be removed from the cable networks.

Can somebody please tell me why they are not removed from the cable networks? I just don't get it!

[Brian O'D]

It's really very simple. Programming rights are sold on different levels. ITV and Channel 4 (and Channel 5) do not have the rights to re-broadcast their programmes via satellite to the Republic of Ireland.

In the case of cable, it's a little more complicated. Because we in Ireland have been lucky in the sense that we could pick up 'stray' analogue signals from the UK, cable companies started relaying the channels many moons ago, removing the need for most people to have unsightly aerials on their houses. Somehow, the cable companies and the broadcasters have managed to keep that situation alive - although a demand for payment by the broadcasters some years back nearly took this situation away from us. The whole situation arose by accident and thankfully, the authorities who could take these benefits from us, have decided to leave things as they are.

However, if people here keep pushing to have channels relayed on the Sky system that they are not at all entitled to, they might find themselves having an opposite effect to that intended... ie, cable companies being forced to remove the UK terrestrials when they have gone fully digital. We have already seen this in action. When we were 'allowed' to get the ITV regions via our 'Other channels' screen on Sky, constant moaning and bleating by the likes of Mr Slane (who is responsible for the letter in the Herald) resulted in ITV taking the channels away from us.

I find it incredible that a nation thinks that on any level they have the right to demand channels paid for by licence-fee holders in other countries! Again, stating that Sky subscribers in the UK have these channels is a misnomer. The Sky box is simply a carrier for the channels - there is no subscription fee involved.

When Mike said in his post that "This is discrimination on the grounds of Nationality" he is totally missing the point. We just cannot demand broadcasters from other countries to supply us with their channels. That is patently ridiculous.

[Mike]

What point am I missing ? Surely if we live in a "single european market" then people shouldnt be refused access to a service because of whatever side of a national border they happen to reside on. (To say nothing of people like myself who reside in more than one country).

The most widely spoken language in Europe is German (80 million in Germany plus many more in Austria, Italy, Luxembourg, France, The Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland and The Czech Republic etc)
but surely discrimination on the basis of language is just as bad as discrimination on the basis of nationality

The point about Nationalists in NI is no more or less valid than the right of Southern Unionists to watch UK channels (Incidently many unionists prefer to watch films on RTE as they dont go in for this horrible practice of cutting films like UTV do) Since there are more people in London who consider themselves Irish than in NI surely RTE should be available throughout the UK and beyond.

And analouge reception of RTE in NI can hardly be termed "accidental overspill" when theres several hunded kilowatts being beamed Northwards frome Claremont carn just a few miles from the border !

[Brian O'D]

Maybe I'm going to have to state this a bit clearer!!!

First point you missed. The EU, and how they've set up their market, IS NOT the issue. You can bleat on about how we are all living in a single market until the cows are back safely in their barns, but it is the distributors who sell their product the way they do. Do you seriously think they are easily going to sell the rights to their programming to one large superstate, when they are presently selling to a whole lot of smaller ones? Besides, what you are suggesting would lead to the likes of Sky dominating European tv, stifling competition and killing off smaller stations, in the same way the UK's digital tv set-up has been wrapped up by Murdoch.

Anyway, it may be a single market, but we all still living under separate governments, and to all intents and purposes, different states with different laws. And national television still exists within those boundaries, with the citizens of those states funding their tv services whatever way their government has decided they should be funded. With all great respect, we have no right to demand services paid for by others.

Second point you've missed. I'll quote from my own post. . "Obviously, the majority of people in the EU speak English as their second language." So, it doesn't matter how many people speak German as their first language, most people in the EU have, at the very least, an understanding of English whereas, natural English speakers tend not to be fluent in other languages, or not one in particular anyway. Anyway, the programmes under dispute are originally in English, so it is how many speak English that is the issue, not how many speak German.

Third point you've missed...RTE would feel they have some right to bc to the north because they, like many in the south and ALL nationalists in the north, do not recognise the northern state. Whereas, southern unionists ARE living in a foreign state so they have absolutely no right to receive anything other than the channels bc within that state.

Fourth point you've missed...my point was about analogue reception of UK channels in the south, not the other way around. It has already been stated in my original post - and again here - why I feel that there are quote "several hunded kilowatts being beamed Northwards frome Claremont carn just a few miles from the border !"

[Mike]

The EU, and how they've set up their market, IS NOT the issue. ..... Do you seriously think they are easily going to sell the rights to their programming to one large superstate, when they are presently selling to a whole lot of smaller ones?

If the EU were to insist on a single market for TV rights the distributors wouldnt have much choice. Theyre hardly going to exclude themselves from the worlds second largest market

Besides, what you are suggesting would lead to the likes of Sky dominating European tv, stifling competition and killing off smaller stations, in the same way the UK's digital tv set-up has been wrapped up by Murdoch.

Well Sky would be competing with the likes of Canal +, Fininvest, RTL etc. On the other hand there would be still room in the market for national broadcasters and public service channels (although the likes of RTE would possibly concentrate their resources onto a single channel although done well this wouldnt be a bad thing since in any case they wouldnt need to duplicate programming carried on other outlets) In the USA despite the market being dominated by 3-8 "national" networks there are still Independent, PBS and LPTV broadcasters holding their own (despite not having any licence fee)

Anyway, it may be a single market, but we all still living under separate governments......we have no right to demand services paid for by others.

Yes but there is free movement of people, goods and (some) services between these states. Why should TV be any different. Maybe the licence fee could be collected at European level and distributed to the various national broadcasters (this could be a boon for RTE as smaller countries would probably get favorible treatment)

Obviously, the majority of people in the EU speak English as their second language......
Most people would prefer to watch programming in their first language though

RTE would feel they have some right to bc to the north because they, like many in the south and ALL nationalists in the north, do not recognise the northern state.....

eh since 1998 Nationalists on both sides of the border have "recognised the Northern State" albeit reluctantly. Southern Unionists also recognise the Southern state as the will of the people for the time being although by definition with the same reluctance as Nationalists view the North. Both are equally entitled to their opinion and to just as entitled to recieve broadcasts from Ireland, or the UK as each other. Ethnic Germans in Italy's South Tyrol province are legally entitled to recieve German and Austrian broadcasts despite their licence fee going to RAI (Italian state broadcaster) so there is a precdent there

[021]

Regarding the non-availability of UTV , C4 and C5, on SkyDigital in Eire, would it be feasable to pick these stations up 'off-air' from UHF at a suitable location in the republic and have these uplinked for transmission on the Eire package???
How would this be any different from what Cable, MMDS and the deflectors are doing (from the copyright perspective)

[Megawatts]

As stated repeatedly by others, the RTE on SKY is a rights issue.

However BEFORE Perhaps RTE had TARA shut down, the rights issue should have been cleared. UK viewers had a very resaonable channel, that had broadcast for years, allowing Irish viewers in the UK, to see their favorite RTE Live shows. This was limited to Irish home grown product, as the rights issue was simpler.

For UK viewers, their local ITV and BBC 1 is post code selected, including the regional advert regions on Channel 4 and 5.

Irish and Ulster terrestrial viewers have only received UTV/RTE due to what is basically pirated signals, either specifically broadcast across territories, or allowed with a nodd and a wink. The official RTE blurb on Claremont Cairn, was for a transposer for North Co. Dublin! Being 2,000 ft up, a mountain a few yards from the border... well, enough said. Likewise radio signals from the BBC and DTR, have KW transmitters ringing the border, as in Today, and Radios 1,2 (both UK and Eire versions). So the terrestrials have been doing a lot of technically illegal transmission, into the opposing territories for decades... based on "spill".

I THINK there is a government fee paid by surrounding european countries to cover this. Just as Irish cable carries BBC and ITV, so does Dutch cable. But this has been restricted to local cable systems that could pick up th terrestrial signal, and was therefore limited.

The problem with Digital Satellite is, that once RTE is available to 63million odd UK viewers, do you you think the rights they pay for 3.5million Irish viewers, will somehow change the cost of these programmes.

RTE / TV3 frequently gets a series a week or more a head of UK viewers, for a much lower cost. Once they are available to all 67 odd millions viwers in the British isles, then they will be competing directly with the BBC and Ch3,4,5 rights.

RTE would have better thought out their ability to air on Digital, if they had arranged for a GB (mainland UK) separate channel, as Tara was.
The post code issue in the north would have allowed for RTE to PROBABLY continue as the terrestrial output, into Northern Ireland, on SKY, but that would need a lot more transponder space... which costs money.

It would NOT allow TV3 (Probably) to broadcast into GB at ALL. (as it Granada TV anyway, who own about 30% of SKY anyway)

The narrow insular thinking of the North and the EU, is rubbish. Imagine Greek or Turkish TV having immediate rights to broadcast to Ireland... who is going to pay for a mirriad of TV channels, just so RTE can legally broadcast to the UK... it would be a rights mess. Thats why most countries have defaulted to their own slot in the sky. The old days of being able to watch free to air broadcasts, with a swing dish or whatever are rapidly dissappearing. The Post code authorisation of a viewer's receiver is what the accountants want. They want to countrol your every access to their product, and get you to pay for every minute of it, pay a licence feee, AND watch the adverts.

They will increasing RESTRICT your ability to view.

Yes it would be very nice indeed to watch your local news, and regional programming from whatever channel, where ever.

In some respects streaming video, and broadband satellite delivered internet may actually short circuit the likes of SKY.

So its quite simple:- the broadcasters should engineer a system that allows viewers to see what they want, but the rights issues given to these broadcasters will have to change.

Lets face it, having a given channel available to 70 million people, when only 5m or so will ever want to watch it, in practical terms should be resolvable.

However when a commercial channel like ITV finds out people can watch a given soap on a foreign station, in english... on the same Digital platform, then they will lose out.

When RTE broadcast Coronation St a few minutes earlier, they were taken to court by UTV. So broadcasting entire channels covering old TSAs without a system in place to deal with this, could mean RTE may take years before its available across the British Isles. Unless they arrange a separate UK version of their channels, including TV3, T na G etc. What about Irish Nationals in the US, or Australia....

But that brings us back to Tara, and now no one in the UK can see anything.

When ITV which had its version of Formula 1, F1 had the ITV Formula 1 blanked on SKY Digital, with a caption saying, if you want to watch F1, turn to ITV terrestrail. This was a case of the same ITV channel on both terrestrial and Digital, in the one country with the same channel, having to cut off a programme from SKY, over a rights issue, that did not allow them on Sky Digital, with a given programme.

So RTE, TV3 etc on a UK wide free to air system, not a hope.!

Well it's quite simple:- If you want to see BBC /ITV in Ireland then SUBSCRIBE, and the related monies go to the BBC / ITV, as with any other channel.
Likewise RTE in the UK, then it should be subscription, with the UK monies going to RTE.

The extra monies would deal with the extra rights concerned.

Why didn't I think of that before.?

[TV Tree]

Fascinating thread. I enjoyed reading it.
Everybody has some valid points, but the reason why uk terestrials are on cable and not on Sky is because it is easy to control digital signals, so much so that even individual boxes can be controlled, but it has never been easy to control analog signals.
So, because there was no point denying irish cable customers the tv channels they could get by putting up an ariel anyway, they might as well charge the providers.
Witness the difference in attitude from Channel 5 who refuse to allow cable companies here access to their channel. They can do it because there signal is weeker and the majority in the Republic are now on cable. Nobody is going to fork out 300euro just to receive Ch5 - unless clinicaly insane that is!