Low Down On Omnia

[DarrinWard]

I've read a fair bit about the "Omnia Grunge" in both this forum and the old one.

Can someone please give me a COMPREHENSIVE list as to why there is such opposition to this particular processor and not to all digital processors.

I've heard the Omnia 6 in action on a few radio stations and to me it seems fine. I agree that the first version of the Omnia may have left some room for improvement, but the Omnia 6 is nice.

Please provide comprehensive technical reasons for your dislikes of this processor as opposed to your spontaneous feelings.

Thanks

Darrin

[Hissing Sidebands]

The main reason that Omnias fall down is that their peak limiting is largely achieved by composite clipping, rather than distortion cancelled limiting. The last couple of dB of loudness is what separates the likes of Behringer and Optimod. The dynamic control and crossover frequencies, time constants etc. of the main compresser function are relatively OK (this area is largely a matter of taste), but you can't seem to have clean AND loud with an Omnia.
The most critical audio to process is human voice, and this, in my, and many others opinion , is where the Omnia falls down.
The new Orban Optimod 8400 can deal with voice very well, and has better source to source consistency than the Omnia IMHO.

[BillyBob]

I guess that's why SPIN decided on the ORBAN....

[Frank Foti]

I've read the post regarding our Omnia.6 fm processor. I feel the need to respond when our company has been misrepresented in a public forum, as it has been here.

The Omnia.6 processor has been demonstrated and accepted the World over. We can share with this group that it has been the processor chosen by *many* influential broadcasdters. At this time, Omnia.6 was chosen by 8 of the top 10 FM stations in New York City. (The toughest market for radio!) The top three money makers in the USA are using Omnia.6. Just about every major network in France is using Omnia or Omnia.6. The BBC in the UK. Here in the USA, the two largest broadcast companies use significant Omnia units in place of *any* other processor.

It needs to be pointed out that in the post from "Hissing Sidebands," there is a gross inaccuracy regarding peak control, as Omnia.6 *does not* employ composite clipping for final limiting. This has been proven via it's on-air performance. While we offer composite clipping, most users have not required it. Your comment to this group is misrepresentative, and you should make sure you have your facts correct before before making a public comment. It's obvious you are not a supporter of our product, and possibly a representative of another company.

With the release of our current software version, voice has been judged to sound as good as any other system capable of handling live voice.

It also needs to be said that Omnia.6 performs all of it's processing functions using low delay, less than 10ms, whereas another system is still using an unacceptable delay that is near 20ms.

At the NAB, last week in Las Vegas, we had a live mic setup where visitors could listen to themselves in headphones via a 10ms or 20ms monitoring setup. Without knowing what type of system they were listening too, so there could not be any partiality, 100% of the demonstrations complained that 20ms of processing was unacceptable for off-air monitoring, whereas the 10ms latency was acceptable.

I realize that audio processing is a subjective 'animal,' and that it can be fun to compare different systems among themselves. But, I would hope that this group is sensitive and understanding when false claims are made of a product.

Independant of any technical claims, the important aspect to judging processing is basically in one area, and that is how does the system sound? I'm well aware that our product, as well as all other processing products can be setup, or adjusted to sound quite good, or quite bad. It does depend on many variables. Thus, before making any heavy claim towards *any* company's product, please make sure that every aspect has been covered. If anyone out there is this forum would like to dialog directly about processing, or our products, you're welcome to eMail me.

There's a reason why so many influential broadcasters have chosen our product, and it wasn't by mistake. It's was due to sonic performance.

Respectfully submitted,

-Frank Foti, President
Omnia

[Bob Orban]

I want to comment on Mr. Foti's NAB-booth "research" regarding the acceptability of 20ms delay for off-air monitoring into headphones.

Monitoring delay is a tradeoff between the sophistication of the digital processing and presenter comfort. The ideal delay is, of course, zero. No one can argue with that. But there are advantages to be gained by using delay as part of processing.

Starting with less than 1 ms delay, some people begin to perceive bone-conduction comb filtering during headphone listening. The coloration gets progressively more noticeable as the delay is increased. However, most talent can learn to adjust to this, albeit with some grumbling and complaining. From this point of view, "lower" is always better than "higher."

The real killer is audible echo, because it confuses and distracts almost any talker. Talker echo has been an issue in telephony ever since the advent of long-distance service, so the issue has been carefully studied. The current standard is ITU-T Recommendation G.131: '"Control of talker echo," (August 1996), which states that: "In general, it is recommended that the active echo control devices shall be deployed on all connections which exceed the total one-way talker echo transmission path time of 25 ms."

This corresponds closely to a psychoacoustic constant studied by Haas in his work on the "precedence effect." Basically, this states that when there are two identical sound sources (like two speakers in stereo reproduction), changing the delay between them from 0 to 20 ms will make the apparent spatial source of the sound move progressively closer to the earlier of the two sources. (This effect has sometimes been exploited to implement delay-based panning effects.) However, at about 20 ms, this effect breaks down and a distinct echo begins to appear on transient material. This is the "echo fusion threshold."

So 20 to 25 ms is the longest delay that can be practically used before audible echo starts to confuse talent and causes their performance to deteriorate. Because we were determined to continue to use look-ahead techniques in version 2.0 of Optimod-FM 8400 (because of their manifest advantages), we set that goal for maximum acceptable delay time. Delay was approximately 40 ms with version 1.0 and below, so reducing that by 50% required a fairly heroic effort -- we made substantial modifications to perhaps 30% of the DSP code in the 8400. But we achieved our goal; delay measures 19.8 ms now. We did this by looking at every delay in the code that was not essential to the look-ahead functionality. Because of the multirate nature of the 8400's processing, there is a substantial amount of upsampling and downsampling that occurs. (We operate all clippers at 256 kHz sample rate, for example.) We were therefore able to get rid of quite a bit of delay by operating the entire "back end" peak limiting section at 64 kHz instead of 32 kHz, which eliminated a number of expensive (in terms of delay) 32 kHz->256 KHz and 256 kHz->32 kHz conversions. Instead, the conversions occur between 64 kHz and 256 kHz, which require only about one-fifth the delay of the 32 kHz <-> 256 kHz conversions. While this alone didn't get us all the way to our goal, there were a number of other smaller steps we could take, and, when all was said and done, we made it.

We have also retained the "monitor output" functionality, which allows the analog output to be switched to a relatively low-delay pre-limiter feed. In v 2.0, this delay is 5 ms. In the ideal installation, this monitor feed is used to drive talent headphones (because of less bone-conduction comb-filtering), while the engineer still has the comfort of knowing that the 20 ms delay of the main on-air output is short enough to allow outside talent (like helicopter traffic reporters) to cue off-air without having echo mess up their performances.

Regarding our look-ahead technology: Look-ahead is actually used in multiple places in the 8400 for multiple purposes. (Exactly what we are doing is proprietary; it goes WAY beyond the basic BBC techniques pioneered in the 1960s--see below.) The advantage of look-ahead is that the DSP "knows" about the nature of program material it has not yet processed, so it can adapt its functionality accordingly, and can do so smoothly so that the change does not introduce modulation distortion -- the change is complete just in time to process the part of the waveform that needs it.

[In its simplest form, modern look-ahead limiting -- that its, look-ahead limiting that controls modulation distortion -- was first developed and implemented by Shorter, Manson, and Stebbings at the BBC Research Department in 1967. They observed that certain waveforms, like piano attacks, started to sound clipped when conventional limiter attack times were decreased below 300 microseconds. This was because the waveform resulting from this fast an attack started to look very much like a clipped waveform.

To solve this problem, they filtered the limiter control signal with a step-shaping network that smoothed the attack section of the limiter control signal. However, the delay from this filter caused overshoot because the control signal was no longer time-aligned with the audio signal being limited. To solve this, they passed the un-limited audio through a 300 microsecond passive LC delay line, which lined up the audio and the control signal and eliminated the overshoot.]

Regarding "cleaner" voices: Look-ahead techniques allow us to get voice that is loud AND clean simultaneously. I have heard other processors that go one of two ways--they either get loud and distorted (because of severe clipping), or they obviously and obtrusively turn down loudness on speech material so that it ends up being quiet and inconsistent. But getting voice that is clean, yet loud enough to be well-balanced with very loud music, is, IMHO, the primary advantage of using look-ahead.

--Bob Orban

[Marconi]

Thanks Bob for the science lesson, it doest change the fact that Omnia is caning your product in all the important markets, funny how if yours is that much better, the BBC (whom you write about) have just yesterday ordered 11 Omnia6 processors, not 8400's why?..... It doesn't take a brain surgeon to work that out!

Let the facts speak for themselves guys!

[Bob Orban]

Originally posted by Marconi
Thanks Bob for the science lesson, it doest change the fact that Omnia is caning your product in all the important markets, funny how if yours is that much better, the BBC (whom you write about) have just yesterday ordered 11 Omnia6 processors, not 8400's why?..... It doesn't take a brain surgeon to work that out!

Let the facts speak for themselves guys!

I'm not really sure what I said to inspire such a hostile reply. However, for the record, I must point out that eight out of the top ten FM stations in Los Angeles use 8400. Last time I loooked, Los Angeles qualifies as an "important market."

Moreover, the 8400 just won the Radio World Newspaper Reader's Choice Poll for "best on-air audio processor," and its new version 2.0 software and forthcoming IBOC option was one of ten BE Radio Pick Hit winners at NAB this year. (Pick Hit winners are selected by a panel of professionals working in the field, independent of the magazine's editorial staff.)

So perhaps things are not quite so grim for 8400 as you would have us believe :-).

--Bob Orban

[Hissing Sidebands]

If you look to the post of the original question:

"Please provide comprehensive technical reasons for your dislikes of this processor as opposed to your spontaneous feelings.

Thanks

Darrin"

So what's wrong with Bob's post, exactly?

Regarding the BBC - they are not the organisation they once were - whereas once, equipment was selected after careful engineering investigation, this is not so much the case now, if it where, then BBC radio 1 would not have sounded distorted for many months as it did couple of years ago.

Processing is subjective to a large extent, but one can hear as many bad choices as good ones around the world at stations who one would have thought should know better - sometimes, stations succeeed in a market despite their processing, not because of it (e.g WPLJ in New york in the 80's and 90;s
IMHO
There has been considerable research in the past on teh effects of distortion and specifically too much mid and top end boost and clipping, and the effect on quarter hour maintenance, especially the negative effects too much of these can have on female listeners in particular. What is often instructive is too see the choices a friend or relative makes with the radio in the car - do they turn the volume down or switch stations, for no apparent reason?
I have done this many times, and after observing and asking why they took these actions, the response has been something like "it's too sharp sounding" or "too fizzy" (in this case, the signal strength is fine, - they were referring to the sound)
One has to make processing choices carefully, and not just depend on your radio peers for feedback!

[Guest]

Hey all,

Well Ive decided to throw my view in, as a person who gets great pleasure out of working with audio processors, and has done the last 6 years , starting from the behringer ultradyne, then on to the optimod 8100 and xt2, to the omnia 3, to the ticcessi digimod, to the omnia 6, to the optimod 8200 and most recently to the omnia 4.5, I have to say all bitching and technical jorgan aside, I have found the omnia 3, 6, and 4.5 to be far superior processor than any other, at the end of the day its how you sound on air that matters, and listening to other stations that use optimod 8200, and 8100 and xt2 and ticessi digimod, the omnia sounds a 1000 sounds better, the sound is more open, round and sweet will still having th option to be loud and processed if you spend a couple of days setting up the omnia, the results are threwly amazing.

In respect to the dealers of orban altough you say look ahead processing is better, it means a station has either to monitor off desk or buy another processor as your 20ms plus delay is unbarable for off air monitoring.

In my opinion TUMBS UP to Omnia, TUMBS DOWN to Orban.

My view is not bissest of anybody, but just an honest opinion to which processor sounds better on Air, in a tutshell IF I COULD SHAG AN OMNIA PROCESSOR I WOULD!!!

[Frank Foti]

Bob Orban writes:

"I want to comment on Mr. Foti's NAB-booth "research" regarding the acceptability of 20ms delay for off-air monitoring into headphones. "

It needs to be pointed out that our NAB demonstration was a double-blind test using an Omnia.6 and 8400 processor. The subject was not aware of what they were listening to. Thus, the reactions that we observed were honest, based upon "real-world" conditions.

Independent of your stated research, the effects of latency is there. Only time and experience will tell what level of latency is acceptable or not. Based upon results from end-users, it appears that 20ms is too excessive for off-air monitoring.

In a later post, Bob Orban wrote:

"I must point out that eight out of the top ten FM stations in Los Angeles use 8400. Last time I looked, Los Angeles qualifies as an "important market."

Interesting, that we know that 4 of the top 7 Los Angeles stations are using an Omnia processor.

-Frank Foti

[Justin Speck]

Originally posted by Hissing Sidebands

Regarding the BBC - they are not the organisation they once were - whereas once, equipment was selected after careful engineering investigation, this is not so much the case now, if it where, then BBC radio 1 would not have sounded distorted for many months as it did couple of years ago.



Ah how true. Perhaps you should have said: whereas once, nothing in the market place could possibly have been good enough and they would commission their Equipment Department to design and manufacture something bespoke. :)

Although things have changed, I guess the BBC does have fewer of the commercial pressures and does still have the engineering effort to consider what might be best for the listener.

I think there are still a few Optimods lurking around the Corporation.

J

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by Justin Speck


I think there are still a few Optimods lurking around the Corporation.

J

Actually, a few years ago BBC, Local Radio, standardized on Omnia processors. About 70 of them.

-Frank Foti

[DarrinWard]

Hello...
I'm the original poster of this topic, and have now registered here.

I am glad to see such technical responses, this is exactly what I was hoping to achieve when posting.

I'm glad to see that Mr. Foti & Mr.Orban are active on this board, in fact I still can't believe it, are you guys really here or is it somebody pulling a fast one?

Anyway, I feel we've finally accomplised a technical outlook as opposed to the unjustified posts against some processors without a comprehensive technical reason.

Wow .. Id the BBC bought 70 of those babies, your a rich man Mr. Foti!! - I want you to know that I initiated this post ONLY to see other peoples views, I in fact like both the Omnia & Orban .. especially the 8100A & XT2 & the Omnia 6.

Regards..
Darrin Ward

[Frank Foti]

Darrin and Group,

The messages that have been posted from me are legit. My take is that the responses from Bob Orban are also legit, as those posts fit his writing style.

Both of us have posted to a few newsgroups. Most noteably the "radio-tech" board located at: www.broadcast.net.

There appears to be a lot of potential for some good technical dialog here on this board. Hopefully all those involved will agree, and then the group can learn new and exciting things together.

Regards,

-Frank Foti

[DarrinWard]

I agree with you Frank. I think its very postive and constructive to have posts from the "Head Guys" on topics such as these, it can eliminate some of the negative posts, which really don't help anyone.

I've not been forunate enough to have either of these processors in my personal possesion which would allow me to "fiddle" with them and see what they can really do, however from the stations I know that use these processors I think they are something to marvel at. It really shows that you "Head Guys" and your development teams are listening to your clients and developing technology based around the feedback you get.

BTW, feel free to ship me a processor so I can get a Demo!! - ha ha, just kidding!!

Regards...
Darrin Ward

[Justin Speck]

I too am pleased to see these gents joining us. I guess they must have good search engines to pick up instances of "Omnia" or "Orban" appearing on boards around the world.

I have no axe to grind on either of these processors and while station owners may prefer the "sound" of one over the other I suspect most of the problems we hear about are all due to set-up rather than any inherent weakness in either product.

I heard a story from some engineers in a far off country a couple of years ago; the autocratic station owner knew best and bought a processor (sorry, can't remember which one) and had the sales engineer install it and set it up just so without reference to them.

Needless to say after the sales engineer went home, the station owner thought that perhaps this or that just needed a slight tweak. After a couple of weeks of this he announced that, at last, it sounded just right. My friends had a look at the settings and, as you've probably guessed, they were exactly back where the sales engineer had set them! They decided not to tell the station owner.:)

Hearing some of the comments on the various "processor" threads perhaps he was one of the lucky ones!

J

[Bob Orban]

Originally posted by Frank Foti

Interesting, that we know that 4 of the top 7 Los Angeles stations are using an Omnia processor.

-Frank Foti

I'm not sure that I can resolve this question to everyone's satisfaction, but my statement about 8400 use in L.A. was based on a conversation with our Director of Sales, who did call-out research to various Chief Engineers in the L.A. market about four weeks ago. I've now had a chance to look at his spreadsheet, and I was wrong on one point -- as of the time of his research, there were seven 8400s and one 8200 _on_the_air_ in the top ten FM stations, according to the answers he got.

I see several Omnias listed as "backups," so it may be strictly true that four stations in the top ten are "using" (in Mr. Foti's words) an Omnia processor, even though the Omnia is not on the air at the moment.

Things may have changed in four weeks, and some of our information may now be wrong, but we assuredly didn't pull it out of thin air.

--Bob Orban

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by Robert Orban


I see several Omnias listed as "backups," so it may be strictly true that four stations in the top ten are "using" (in Mr. Foti's words) an Omnia processor, even though the Omnia is not on the air at the moment.

Things may have changed in four weeks, and some of our information may now be wrong, but we assuredly didn't pull it out of thin air.

--Bob Orban

Strange...As our market research, which was done within the last month prior to NAB, basically heard the opposite story...That Omnia was the main processor On-The-Air in Los Angeles.

-Frank Foti

[Guest]

It's all very well for Frank and Bob to brag about who in the US is
using their boxes, but can I relate this issue for the benefit of our
Irish collogues, to something a bit closer to home.

As Dublin is the 'Major' market in Ire, London is the Major market here on my doorstep.

Processing is my passion, and although I don't get to play with these boxes myself, I do happen to have a good idea what everyone is using, and to Orbans shame the balance is very heavily tipped in favor of Omnia
(and hearing them on air you can hear why).

So for anyone interested, here is a run down of who is using what in
London:

Capital Omnia6
Kiss Omnia6
XFM Omnia.fm (supposedly they are waiting for their
Omnia6)
Virgin Omnia.fm
Thames Omnia6
Active Omnia6
BBC London Omnia.fm
Choice (north) Omnia.hot
Choice (south) Omnia.hot
Heart Optimod 8400
FLR Optimod 8200 (or 2200)
Jazz fm Inovonics 250
News direct Optimod 8200
LGR Optimod 8100
Magic Optimod 8200
Classic Optimod 8200

Consider that all the 8200's and the 8100 (other than FLR and Classic) were installed before Omnia even existed; this means that all the other stations who have had a choice or who have upgraded with the exception of Heart have chosen Omnia!!!!

To be fair to Orban, the 8200 in its day (this day being when most of the above users installed it) was a good box, but the sheer amount of Omnia's (in particular Omnia6's) in use here in the UK over the 8400 is testimony to what a heap of junk the 8400 really must be, only one station in London is using it!!!!

If the 8400 was such a successful box as Bob makes out, why did Orban have to re-release the 8200? When previously they had been saying it would be discontinued?

No one purchases processors without serious auditioning and
consideration (especially at the horrendous prices of these boxes), and NO ONE is choosing the 8400! I would hate to be the engineer or PC does, how could you possibly justify that action to your MD and Board of Directors when all your competition is thrashing you off the dial... maybe I just wanted to be different... yeah right!

[Guest]

Originally posted by London Processing Anorak


If the 8400 was such a successful box as Bob makes out, why did Orban have to re-release the 8200? When previously they had been saying it would be discontinued?



We didn't say that the 8200 would be discontinued, except in the sense that it would be replaced by the "8200 Signature Series," which was a 10th anniversary edition of the 8200 with extra presets and a different color scheme on the front panel.

The 8200 Signature Series fills a price point in our processor line midway between the 2200 and the 8400. A previously important feature is its very low 2.7ms delay time. However, the importance of this low delay has been reduced by the very recent release of 8400 version 2.0 software, as explained in my longer post above.

[Scott]

Interesting posts.
Can I make a point about why I think omnia has done so well in recent years, especially here in the UK

Marketing! The UK Omnia distributors do a very good job at putting the product in the hands of the radio stations. Together with a lot of hype (not necessarily a bad thing) you get a buzz on the street. Orban 8400 gets a lot less coverage. I Think there distributor takes a "it's here if you want it attitude"

Besides, every radio related site on the net seems to have omnia banners promoting their boxes. And if you believe the hype of the marketing (which once again I like) your not a REAL man unless you want an omnia 6 (we all want to drive a porchse, right!)

If you look at the above and other marketing points omnia score high on you can see how they have edged Orban out in the box number sales.

My own personal view is that Mr F and MR O take a different stand on processing and this is evident in London. Omnia boxes' appear louder and do seem to be jump out more, BUT, the Orban boxes' offer a longer better listening experience with less fatigue. Take Heart with the 8400. Not as loud as kiss and Capital but a darn site close and so much cleaner sounding. My two pence worth.

This whole loudness is thing is degenerative, a game that the radio stations play in order to be king of the loudness (for a few months) The losers are the listeners. My fav station is magic with its 8200. Shame they will be FORCED to play the game and will upgrade to something that won't sound as nice but be louder.


Scott

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by scott
Interesting posts.

Marketing! The UK Omnia distributors do a very good job at putting the product in the hands of the radio stations. Together with a lot of hype (not necessarily a bad thing) you get a buzz on the street. Orban 8400 gets a lot less coverage. I Think there distributor takes a "it's here if you want it attitude"

<snip>

My own personal view is that Mr F and MR O take a different stand on processing and this is evident in London. Omnia boxes' appear louder and do seem to be jump out more, BUT, the Orban boxes' offer a longer better listening experience with less fatigue. Take Heart with the 8400. Not as loud as kiss and Capital but a darn site close and so much cleaner sounding. My two pence worth.

Scott


Scott,

A couple of points to consider:

1. Omnia's success in the UK, or anywhere else for that matter, was done based upon head-to-head A/B comparison's with other products. Marketing is good in telling the 'story' and/or building name recognition. But in the end, it's product performance that truly matters.

2. While I appreciate your feedback on the London market, it needs to be said that it's all relative to how *any* particular system is setup. Omnia is *very* capable of long-term quality. There's a reason why Omnia was chosen at these stations in London, as we know there were head-to-head A/B tests done with many processors. I'd bet that if *any* of these stations wanted to back it down a bit, you'd notice how well that Omnia can maintain long-term listening.

-Frank

[Serge Auckland]

As the Official UK distributor for Orban products, may I be permitted to add this to the debate


BBC RADIO 3 CHOOSES THE ORBAN 8400 PROCESSOR

Radio 3, the BBC's music and arts service has always been held up as a paragon of audio quality on FM radio. Indeed, for many years, a concert transmitted live has been amongst the very best audio sources available.

However, the change in radio listening habits from fixed installations in the home to a portable and in-car audience has created the need to process the audio for better reception under these real-world conditions.

The BBC undertook an extensive evaluation of competing processors and have chosen the Orban 8400 for its FM service.

The 8400 provides Radio 3 with a sound that is not just louder and clearer on portable and in-car equipment, but that also preserves the essential quality of classical music and speech, something other processors were unable to do adequately.

Commenting on the choice, Simon Tuff, Technology Specialist for BBC Radio and Music said:-

"The Radio 3 audience is about the most discriminating and sophisticated in broadcasting, and we had to ensure that we improved the listening experience
for the majority who listen in cars or on portable radios as well as on hi-fi systems. Only the 8400 was able to create a sound with this unique and difficult balance, equally well for speech and music."

The Orban 8400 processors were supplied by Orban's official UK distributor,
Preco (Broadcast Systems) Ltd

Preco (Broadcast Systems) Ltd
3 Four Seasons Crescent
Kimpton Road
Sutton
Surrey SM3 9QR

Tel: 020 8644 4447
Fax: 020 8644 0474
Email: serge@preco.co.uk
Web site: www.preco.co.uk

Best regards

Serge Auckland

[Marconi]

Please refrain from using this discussion forum as an “Advertising Billboard” for your company.
The debate on digital processing is not advanced by promoting supplier / distributor name and contact details. I have witnessed this processing discussion mature from the early juvenile days of “Anorak Stupidity” with nothing more intelligent than comments like “its sounds crap” to the forthright viewpoints from expert contributors, such as two of world leaders in Audio Processing. It is a pleasure to see them take the time to participate here and we all will benefit from their insight and experience, after all, no matter what an individual’s subjective preference in audio processing is, it must be recognised that if a product is good it sells, and if its not it won’t.

The community of radio broadcasters are better served and informed by encouraging experts to give their individual perspective on the technical aspects of their respective products, even if that comes from a polarised position.

May I congratulate John Fleming on the new format of this discussion board, as it has encouraged a more professional debate as apposed to a slagging match by one dealer to another.

I hope the debate can continue in an intelligent and informative style.

[Guest]

Update on Los Angeles ratings controversy:

Since there is obviously a disagreement between Mr. Foti and me, I checked further. The latest news is this: In the Winter 2002 Arbitron Book...12+ 6am-Midnight, all four of the top four FM stations in the Los Angeles market use 8400. This is from an _extremely_ reliable source.

[Serge Auckland]

Come of it Marc oni

The BBC is still the most important UK Broadcaster, with the largest number of listeners, so what they choose for their flagship Music and Arts service is relevant to the discussion.

By the way, why hide under a pseudonym? I have made it clear who I am, and where my loyalties lie.

Serge Auckland
Preco Broadcast

[Andy Linton]

Serge's input is useful to this discussion, and the fact that he chose to identify himself and his allegance only goes to reinforce his bona fides and precludes any random suspicions about his motives.

I've been monitoring this thread with great interest, as I too believe that the Optimod 8400 is the best digital processor on the market.

I've heard some good sounding stations in my time, and some downright bad sounding ones.

And the majority of bad sounding ones were not using Orban Optimod processors.

This is why my company, Total Broadcast Ltd, is proud to represent Orban in Ireland. We could make more money representing other brands of processors, but that wouldn't give us the pride we have in making a station sound nice.

Andy Linton
Total Broadcast Ltd.

[Mike Duguid]

Hi, I've just picked up this discussion while searching the web for info on fm processors. Although I apologize for veering slightly off topic, I guess this thread may be read by a few people who may be able to help me.

I'm helping out a 4 week rsl fm station in Aberdeen, Scotland starting in May. The organization has very limited finance & technical resources, and has asked any of the participating dj's (i'm one myself) with a technical background to help out.

As a music recording engineer and being familiar with the use of multiband dynamics devices such as tc finalizer/waves c4,L1 used in music mastering scenarios, i've been asked to help out setting up the studio. I'm looking for any tips on anything specific to bear in mind for fm broadcast output processing, and how to make the most of the limited resources and transmission power.

I read their equipment list and spied the dreaded (gulp) behringer ultradyne (yeah..yeah.. I know - but they just don't have the money for owt else I guess) on it.
Any tips on getting the most out of one of these would be appreciated. Would a high quality full band compressor like a tl audio c1 be any use/preferrable?

Is it preferrable for a low power transmitter to output a mono signal, I've heard that it will help reception in fringe areas?

Thanks for taking the time to read :)

[Hissing Sidebands]

The Behringers are hard to set up OK, someone else on this board night be able to post some settings to try.
Whatever you use though, the limiting function must follow the 50uS pre-emphasis curve, or you will lose loudness if trying to stay under 75kHz deviation, to stay legal. What works (at a pinch), is to defeat the pre-emphasis in the stereo coder (feed into the multiplex stero input if planning mono), and apply the pre -emphasis before the compresser/limiter box. I'ts a compromise, but better than running a compresser/limiter that doesn't take the pre-emphasis into account.

[Mary Ann Seidler]

Originally posted by Robert Orban
Update on Los Angeles ratings controversy:

Since there is obviously a disagreement between Mr. Foti and me, I checked further. The latest news is this: In the Winter 2002 Arbitron Book...12+ 6am-Midnight, all four of the top four FM stations in the Los Angeles market use 8400. This is from an _extremely_ reliable source.


Bob,
Your facts regarding the use of 8400's at the top 4 Los Angeles FM radio stations are NOT correct.
The following is the current Winter 2002 Arbitron ratings for Los Angeles:
+12
KROQ FM
KPWR FM
KOST FM
KFI AM
KIIS/KVVS
KSCA FM

There are in fact Omnia 6's in use within this group of stations, and ON THE AIR. This was confirmed, this week, with direct communications with the station engineers.


Mary Ann Seidler
International Director of Sales
Telos Systems/Omnia

[Guest]

Hey all,

Just to add my opinion to this, Im the engineer for a major uk based radio station, and had a demo of the orban 8400, and the omnia 6, and I have to say with out a doubt, that the omnia 6 bets the 8400 hands down, very clean, clear lous audio. In fact as I was so inpressed we did a test, with the omnia 3, which is the baby of the omnia group, against the 8400, and the omnia 3 sounded better.

So to all concerned at telos/omnia, tumps up to a job very well done, and here's to every success in the future, no doubt you are and will be the leader in broadcast audio processing.

And to any stations/ programme directors/ station engineers who are thinking of buying the 8400, the dealers/sellers of this unit are only codding you when they say its the best, its a sales thing!! but try the demo and you will see for yourself.

Cheers all - and happy omnia listening

[Hissing Sidebands]

Hmm.....How come so many Omnia fans can't spell "Thumbs"? ;)

[Tabasco]

Ho Ho! And says phrases like 'codding' and uses the word 'bets' instead of 'beats'!

It's just that those phrases aren't typically used by English people.

Funny, that. Sounds just like another earlier post by someone who stated that he wished to have carnal knowledge of the Omnia.

Couldn't possibly be someone who has more than a passing interest in the broadcast engineering industry in Dublin?

Any chance of an examination of the sender's IP number?

[Frank Foti]

What I find odd about this forum is the need for so many of you to 'hide' behind ficticious names. Why?

If the desire is to share knowledge and learn, then you should share who you are.

I realize that discussing audio processing is *very* subjective, and just about all of us have certain preferences, but let's keep the discussion to the topic instead of trying to find out who's behind the 'masked' names.

May I suggest that this discussion occur among folks who wish to reveal who they are.

-Frank Foti

[Justin Speck]

Back when I joined the Beeb, engineers used to have to be able to read and write proper.

"Last week I couldn't even spell engineer. Now I is one!"

:)

[Guest]

My information, from a highly placed Clear Channel engineer, has KSCA-FM as #4 (actually tied with KFI-AM, and both beating KIIS by 0.2). This would make KIIS (the O6 user in the top 6) #6 in the market and the #5 FM. We agree on the top 3.

Please note that I am referring to the Winter 2002 Arbitron _book_, 12+, 6AM-12Midnight, and not to Arbitrends or other interim results. Unfortunately, I don't believe I can post the actual ratings numbers here until such time as Arbitron releases them to the general public. However, I _can_ say that KIIS' share is only 75% of the #1 station, and declined in the last book.

Originally posted by Mary Ann Seidler



Bob,
Your facts regarding the use of 8400's at the top 4 Los Angeles FM radio stations are NOT correct.
The following is the current Winter 2002 Arbitron ratings for Los Angeles:
+12
KROQ FM
KPWR FM
KOST FM
KFI AM
KIIS/KVVS
KSCA FM

There are in fact Omnia 6's in use within this group of stations, and ON THE AIR. This was confirmed, this week, with direct communications with the station engineers.


Mary Ann Seidler
International Director of Sales
Telos Systems/Omnia

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by Robert Orban
My information, from a highly placed Clear Channel engineer, has KSCA-FM as #4 (actually tied with KFI-AM, and both beating KIIS by 0.2). This would make KIIS (the O6 user in the top 6) #6 in the market and the #5 FM. We agree on the top 3.

Please note that I am referring to the Winter 2002 Arbitron _book_, 12+, 6AM-12Midnight, and not to Arbitrends or other interim results. Unfortunately, I don't believe I can post the actual ratings numbers here until such time as Arbitron releases them to the general public. However, I _can_ say that KIIS' share is only 75% of the #1 station, and declined in the last book.



Bob,

Just to clarify the facts. The following is the current Winter 2002 Arbitron ratings for Los Angeles: +12. As you can see, KIIS-FM is one of the top 4 LA Stations. These are from the Winter Book, and *not* the arbitrends. This information is public knowledge, and easily accessible.

Station Format Owner Wi 2002

KROQ-FM Alternative Infinity 5.1
KPWR-FM CHR/Rhythmic Emmis 5.0
KOST-FM AC Clear Channel 4.4
KFI-AM Talk Clear Channel 4.0
KIIS/KVVS CHR/Pop Clear Channel 4.0
KSCA-FM Reg. Mex. Hispanic 4.0

There are in fact Omnia 6's in use within this group of stations - and ON THE AIR. This was confirmed, this week, with direct communication with the station engineers.

-Frank Foti

[Guest]

Frank:

OK...since you went first... :-)

Here are the numbers I was given:

Winter 2002 Book........12+ 6am-Midnight

#1 KROQ 5.1
#2 KPWR 5.0
#3 KOST 4.4
#4 KSCA 4.0
#5 KFI 4.0
#6 KIIS 3.8

Perhaps the difference in the KIIS number is the "6am-Midnight" qualifier?

[dj]

Hey bob, frank,

To be honest any1 reading this is not interested in what processors are installed in stations in america, but how they sound over here in ireland. I recently done a test between an orban 8200 and omnia 6, and putting all technical jargon aside, i found that the omnia 6 sounded 110% better, there was no way i could get the 8200 to sound anyway as good as the omnia 6.

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by Robert Orban
Frank:

OK...since you went first... :-)

Here are the numbers I was given:

Winter 2002 Book........12+ 6am-Midnight

#1 KROQ 5.1
#2 KPWR 5.0
#3 KOST 4.4
#4 KSCA 4.0
#5 KFI 4.0
#6 KIIS 3.8

Perhaps the difference in the KIIS number is the "6am-Midnight" qualifier?

Bob,

I'm basing my results on what's been posted by Arbitron for The LA Market. To my understanding, the numbers I shared are 12+ 6am-Midnight. I pulled my data off of the Radio & Records websight, which normally posts 12+ 6am-Midnight results. You can have a look yourself at: www.rronline.com.

Interesting in that the numbers you share, are the exact same values, except for KIIS, which shows a difference of -0.2 from the results I posted. Not sure where the difference lies.

-Frank Foti

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by dj
Hey bob, frank,

To be honest any1 reading this is not interested in what processors are installed in stations in america, but how they sound over here in ireland. I recently done a test between an orban 8200 and omnia 6, and putting all technical jargon aside, i found that the omnia 6 sounded 110% better, there was no way i could get the 8200 to sound anyway as good as the omnia 6.

DJ,

I'm in agreement with you!! What matters most is how a unit sounds, and especially at your location.

My reason for continuing the discussion was that the ratings I'd observed, were from a reputable websight, which showed different results than were reported.

In the end, it comes down to one issue only...THE SOUND!!! :)

-Frank Foti

[Guest]

Frank,do not pay too much attention to "Dj" or "engineer" (one and the same person I think).What started this whole discussion in the first place is the FACT that no station in The Rep of Ireland that uses the Omnia sounds as good as one using an Orban(louder maybe).This question has been asked before: name ONE station in Ireland using an Omnia that sounds better than one using an Orban.No one replied to this before.I wonder why.
Even Dublins FM104 have had to do a lot of work to their audio in recent months following a lot of critisism of how their Omnia sounds,and its still far from perfect.

[Tabasco]

Then it's perhaps down to the people that set up the processors here.

Perhaps those who install and set up Omnias here are not very good at tuning them, or do not have an ear for quality, whereas those who set up the Optimods here are better at their job.

I have heard stations in the US that sounded GREAT, and when I inquired, I found out they were using an Omnia, to my surprise.

But I too have never heard an Omnia here or in the UK sound as nice as an Optimod.

That's possibly why here in Ireland the Omnia has gained a reputation for trashed sound, whereas the Optimod is still regarded highly.

[Dave]

stange that, as listening to spin fm, and 98fm who are both using orban 8400/8200 i believe, who ever set them up is tone deaf, as spin sounds cluttered/grungy and very little life to its sound, and 98fm, sound far better but with a very high mid content making it distort on air during some songs. by far i reakon fm104 sounds the best in dublin.

[CTE]

What about Freedom's audio as far as i know they are using an omnia , and spend a lot of time tuning it ,not like a legal thing set up an forgotten about !

[Guest]

Dave,might I suggest it is you who is tone deaf as I have NEVER heard anybody say that 104s audio is the best(well,not until now).98s is generally considered in the industry to be the best in Dublin.
By any chance are you the person responsible for setting up 104s Omnia?If so,sit back,take a long hard listen(don't use headphones,the excessive 6khz will damage your hearing)and consider a new career.

[Guest]

I think 104 sounds best in Dublin,its very evident when they play dance music,it sounds great,it's bangin

[Tabasco]

Well there you have it. To get good sound you do need to evolve the settings over a good period of time.

Listen to South East Radio in Wexford for example. One of the nicest sounding stations in the country.

The settings there are the results of years of tuning an Optimod.

[Guest]

Your right south east sounds good for the music format they are playing, but they dont sound competetive, if i was a first time listen and tuning around, there sound does jump out at you, sounds just plain, but it does suit there format, id personally prefer a loud, processed but sweet sound, and you certainly dont get that with an optimod.

[Guest]

You do get it with Today FM's Optimod.

And I disagree with you about South East, it may not be as loud as some stations but it dertainly is sweet.

I suspect what you mean is that it doesn't have top end distortion that Dublin people seem to be used to.

But remember South East are using an Optimod 8100/XT2 - the original analogue processor.

[Guest]

I disagree with you, as far as i know today fm, use the daypart settings dueing the day yes they sound sweet, but at night time they sound aweful, an 8100 and xt2 was good in its day, but god we've moved so much, 8100 and xt2 is analogue, and doesnt incorporate any composite clipping which is a must in todays industry. I also disagree with what you say about top end distortion, name 1 station in dublin that has audible top end distortion.

Heard a rumour ORBAN might be going out of business, due to lack of sales, strange that, I WONDER WHY!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

So,Alan,you agree that Today sound sweet during the day!Using an 8100+XT2.AFAIK there are no DAY/NIGHT settings on the 8100,not on any I,ve used anyway.As for the "rumour",does this mean that AKG are going out of buisness?

[Guest]

Today fm use an 8200.

[Tabasco]

I'll name more than one station in Dublin that has top end distorsion.

FM104
Country 106
NewsTalk

plus a couple of the pirates and 2FM when they have it craked up full!

[Guest]

A ha, great to hear you say that 2fm's orban 8200 optimod has top end distortion..

[Guest]

Your bound to get it when you push it as hard as 2FM do.

[Spunk Box]

Interesting conversation, but beginning to veer off a little.

A very interesting question was asked of Frank earlier - which he did not answer. The same question was asked some time ago in a previous forum and one of the technical reps from Omnia declined to answer it either...if the Omnia is so good, how come it has refused such bad press in Ireland? How come it sounds hideous wherever it is put on air?

What has caused there to be so much hostility in Ireland (and the UK) towards the Omnia is that in every case with out exception, installation of an Omnia has resulted in worst sound than before.

A prime example is that of FM104. Up until November 1998, it was generally accepted that 104 had the best audio in Dublin (if not Ireland). It managed to combine, punch, loudness and cleanliness to produce a very unique sound. They were using an 8100A + XT2). Their contract engineering company installed an Omnia and, over-night, they went to having the worst audio in Dublin..distortion, pounding bass, sibilance...Even to this day, despite much worse, I believe that 104 have to have two other processors in their chain to get their audio sounding half-decent - and it still sounds grungy and harsh. I dont know which was worse - the bad audio or the fact that there was no concern expressed about it.

Dublin's Country 106.8 sound grungy at times, with bass distortion and sibilance, Lite FM sent their Omnia back after three months of the worst audio ever (I'm not exagerating!) and if you take a look around this board, you will find a tread about how bad Red FM sound in Cork - again - distortion, exploding bass and sibilance. Back to Dublin, News Talk 106 suffer from distrortion and sibilance.

By contrast, 98 FM (using an 8200), Today FM (using an 8200 but they need to turn up their threashold to get rid of some of that dreadful hiss), and East Coast FM (8200) and Spin (8400) have clean, loud, and punchy audio.

The experience of the Omnia in Ireland has not been good - I wonder is it the people who set these up? Certainly, there appears to have been no attention to detail paid when installing these around the country.

Frank, can you comment on this please and tell us all why these boxes are set up so badly in Ireland? This is a genuine question...

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by Spunk Box
Interesting conversation, but beginning to veer off a little.

Frank, can you comment on this please and tell us all why these boxes are set up so badly in Ireland? This is a genuine question...

I'll be happy to answer your question. Unfortunately, I've not been able to hear any of the stations referred too, yet I've read posts on this thread that have complimented *AND* criticized BOTH the Optimod and Omnia productlines.

Therefore, are you willing to make claim to the same statement that for those who dislike the 'other guy's' processor, that the fault lies in the method of setup? As for proper Omnia setup, I'd rather pass judgement once I can hear the marketplace.

I still find it odd that so many of you are willing to come on to this discussion group and make wild claims about products, yet no one with the exception of a few are willing to say whom you really are.

Last time I looked, Omnia processors have been installed, and are the on-air choice of quite a large number of major markets radio stations , the WORLD over.

-Frank Foti

[Guest]

"Spunk Box" wrote:

"you will find a tread about how bad Red FM sound in Cork - again - distortion, exploding bass and sibilance. "

My reply ......

Not so ..... take a listen to Red FM now and you'll find that their listeners enjoy by far the best processing in Ireland using their Omnia (6 ... ?) processor (and yes, it's way better than the Dublin stations now).

It knocks spots off the rest with clarity and full-bodiness - just listen to any other station for 3 minutes and switch to Red FM ... it immediately speaks for itself.

Now THAT's how to work a processor.

[Guest]

I have to agree, sum1's being adjusting, and it's sounds amazing, fare play to who ever was involved, just proves the point OMNIA WINS OVER ORBAN!!!!

[Spunk Box]

I'm glad to hear that Red is now sounding good and I look forward to having a listen next time I'm down there. It does beg the question as to what they hell was going on for the past four months though?? Who set it up?

Frank, I believe that any processor can sound bad if set up wrongly and the point that I was trying to make is that every version of your processor that has been put on air in Ireland has sounded awful. If you really want to raise the credibility of the Omnia in Ireland and show us what a good processor it is (and there do seem to be very good reports on other message boards) you should blow the cob-webs out the ears of whoever sets them up over here..

SB

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by Spunk Box


Frank, I believe that any processor can sound bad if set up wrongly and the point that I was trying to make is that every version of your processor that has been put on air in Ireland has sounded awful. If you really want to raise the credibility of the Omnia in Ireland and show us what a good processor it is (and there do seem to be very good reports on other message boards) you should blow the cob-webs out the ears of whoever sets them up over here..

SB

Here's what I'm having trouble understanding. There's a varied amount of response about the sound of *all* the processors mentioned in this discussion. I've read about how wonderful, or dreadful, radio stations sound in Ireland using either product.

It's obvious that you have a bias against our product, and that's OK. Your opinion seems to differ with that of numerous others on this list. I'm not sure if your difficulty is with the Omnia, or the firm that represents our company in Ireland? You tell me.

But, you are correct in that the sound of a processor is dependent upon a couple of issues: the person who sets it up, *or* the individuals who desire to have a certain sound. Sometimes the latter happens, and if the audio is not to your liking, then it's not the fault of the person who set the system up, or the system itself.

If you're being truly honest about processing, you must admit that you've heard quite a few poor sounding stations that were using processors other than ours.

Regards,

-Frank Foti

[Guest]

Hey all,

Well as I am I of those so called people who set up processors around ireland, I have to tell you all a little secret. When a processor is put in to station, it is set up with the input of that stations managment, and after setting it up, if it sounds aweful to you, its not the company or enginneers fault, because to the that station they think they sound v good, and wont allow to change it, so if there is any bad sounding stations around ireland, dont blame the processor, or engineer, blame the station itself.

[Guest]

Hi all,

I live in North Wales and use a R.Smith Galaxie 26 aerial.

I am also a Broadcast Engineer.

From this location i can pick up Rock fm(97.4),City fm(96.7),Key 103(103),all greater than 62db! and lots more.

It never ceases to amaze me of the incompitence of the 'person' that sets the processors up!

Key 103(manchester) is a peach!This station is the 2nd largest independant station outside of london,It is by far the most dire souding station i have ever heard!
They are using an omnia,but this is not the reason for the awful audio,The setting up is the problem.

If anybody has heard this station recently,please give your opinion.

[Richie O'Shea]

Hello Processor People.

I'm glad to see the interest that this thread has evoked.
Here's my two cents worth.....
I'm one of the guys involved here with the setting up of the processing the other is away on holls at the mo and I will let him post his own response.
There is one key issue in the comparissons being drawn between the Omnia6 and the Optimod 82 and 8400 processors and that is what they do out of the box..
I spent weeks listening to our Omnia6 during our set up even before we went on air, I know that you will all say that listening to the output before tx is not a true reflection on the products capabilities, but appart from 1 preset in the box it DID sound kack. We had all the firmware updates and things got a little better but I still wasn't happy with the Omnia's consistancy. Some songs sounded very good while others were ripped appart by it and as for live voice - that's a whole other story. The Omnia6 seems to hate live female voices. But my dissapointement was that the Omnia6 does NOT give you a preset that you can work from.
One day a nice man called to me and asked if we would like to have a play with the new Orban Optimod 8600, so we did.. Out of the box you get to answer a few setup questions and the Bob's your Uncle (no punn intended) it's pick a preset time. And what do you know they all sounded good and more iportantly CLEAN and with very little tweaking I could customise a preset to bang us out hot and loud and CLEAN.
As you know we are on air with the Omnia6 and 74 preset mods later it sounds OK.
We had both boxes here and here is my conclusion:-
I can make the 8400 sound like an Omnia6 (good or bad)
I still can't get the Omnia6 to sound like an 8400...


Richie O'Shea
RedFM
Corks #1 fro Hit Music

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by Richie O'Shea

As you know we are on air with the Omnia6 and 74 preset mods later it sounds OK.
We had both boxes here and here is my conclusion:-
I can make the 8400 sound like an Omnia6 (good or bad)
I still can't get the Omnia6 to sound like an 8400...


Richie O'Shea
RedFM
Corks #1 fro Hit Music

Richie,

Thanks for your feedback regarding your processor experiences. Please know that you are welcome to contact us directly for any assistance you might desire.

Regards,

-Frank Foti

[Spunk Box]

Frank,

I have neither a problem with the Omnia (any of the versions) nor the company who install them over here in Ireland.

I have stated on several occasions that my questions are genuine.

I have given valid examples to illustrate what I seek to know (If you read my posts again you will see that I am not siding with any processor - merely pointing out that I think that every example of an Omnia replacing an Orban has resulted in worse sound). I have given you examples of radio stations that have tried the Omnia and decided not to use it.

I have also acknowledged that I have heard good reports about the Omnia but never actually heard an Omnia sound good on air (personally speaking - although I don't doubt that it can sound good).

My attempt to seek clarification from you (and possibly to help you to improve the credibility of the Omnia in Ireland) was not a personal attack - however, you seem to have taken it that way.

One thing is for sure - the reason for the bad press your processor gets is either down to the processor, or the people who set them up (whoever they may be). If you wish to sell more of these in Ireland, you will have to figure out which of these it is for yourself.

I merely took part in a dabate and pressed home some questions that you seemed to fudge.

Frankly (no pun!) I'm a bit surprised that you chose to muddy the air by casting aspirations over me above actually trying to address the genuine concerns that so many of the correspondents have expressed here.

SB

[DarrinWard]

I still maintain that its not either company that have bad sound, it's just digital processing. I've heard both the Orban & Omnia with "Good" sound, but I've never heard sound like the olf FM104 who had the Orban 8100A along with the XT2 and the 2222A spatial enhancer, from what I can remember.

A purely analoge system has always proved better in my opinion. FM104 still sounds ok today, but they are very tinny and nothing dynamic that makes me want to turn it up loud on the car radio.

9FM have a much more relaxed digital sound and don't employ much processing, from what I think, and rightly so as they have a much more relaxed musical format. They sound better than FM104, but it used to be the other way round my a mile.

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by Spunk Box
Frank,

I have neither a problem with the Omnia (any of the versions) nor the company who install them over here in Ireland.

I have stated on several occasions that my questions are genuine.

I have given valid examples to illustrate what I seek to know (If you read my posts again you will see that I am not siding with any processor - merely pointing out that I think that every example of an Omnia replacing an Orban has resulted in worse sound). I have given you examples of radio stations that have tried the Omnia and decided not to use it.

I have also acknowledged that I have heard good reports about the Omnia but never actually heard an Omnia sound good on air (personally speaking - although I don't doubt that it can sound good).

My attempt to seek clarification from you (and possibly to help you to improve the credibility of the Omnia in Ireland) was not a personal attack - however, you seem to have taken it that way.

One thing is for sure - the reason for the bad press your processor gets is either down to the processor, or the people who set them up (whoever they may be). If you wish to sell more of these in Ireland, you will have to figure out which of these it is for yourself.

I merely took part in a dabate and pressed home some questions that you seemed to fudge.

Frankly (no pun!) I'm a bit surprised that you chose to muddy the air by casting aspirations over me above actually trying to address the genuine concerns that so many of the correspondents have expressed here.

SB

SB,

There seems to be a variance of opinion relating to our product. As I stated before, you are not happy with it's performance, while there are others who feel it sounds OK. If you look back over this thread, you'll see that. I notice that you choose to overlook the comments from the other correspondents who dislike the sound of the optimod, even though you like the sound of it. You're choosing to discard orban's critics and Omnia's supporters, yet focus only on what you feel are the misgivings of our product. If you're really be honest here, you need to admit that your position appears biased.

I sense that your questions are genuine, and I have not avoided answering you, or fudged any response. You wonder why Omnia has a specific sound to it, and seems to 'print' that way on numerous stations in Ireland? I'm sorry, but unless I was actually there listening to the same audio as you are, there's not much I can offer. What are you expecting me to say?

I've not taken any of your comments as a personal attack, although since 1997, Omnia processors have outsold *every* other FM box Worldwide!! So, are you now going to claim that 1000's of Omnia processed radio stations all sound bad, when just about all of them did the proverbial A/B comparison with Orban, Aphex, CRL, or whichever box they had to compare it too? The numbers don't lie!!

Questioning why you choose to 'hide' behind some 'handle' is not fudging anything, muddying the issue, or casting aspirations over you. My question about why you must hide is genuine as well.

In an effort to provide you the answers you're looking for, I'd be happy to meet with you, whenever I'm in Ireland next, and together we can have a listen to the Omnia.6 or whichever version you'd like to hear. Then, it would be much easier to explain, or answer any further questions that you have. Likewsie, if you're ever in the State and wish to visit our company, you're more than welcome too!!! We've got just about all the latest boxes, with current software versions, and you can A/B them all you want!!

Regards,

-Frank Foti

[DarrinWard]

In an effort to provide you the answers you're looking for, I'd be happy to meet with you, whenever I'm in Ireland next, and together we can have a listen to the Omnia.6 or whichever version you'd like to hear.


Now there's a mark of excellence and a high standard of customer service :)

[Spunk Box]

Frank,

Apologies for the delay in responding.

I admit that my position may appear biased but I 'm actually not. I guess that I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to audio, particularly broadcast audio. (I'm actually not choosing to discard Omnia supporters and Orban critics at all - read back again!!)

I admire your professionalism in your last posting. Fair play to you Frank. You are obviously very confident in your product. The way that you have stuck to this debate is very impressive.

I will actually be visiting the States soon, might drop in for a look around!!

SB

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by Spunk Box
Frank,

Apologies for the delay in responding.

I admit that my position may appear biased but I 'm actually not. I guess that I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to audio, particularly broadcast audio. (I'm actually not choosing to discard Omnia supporters and Orban critics at all - read back again!!)

I admire your professionalism in your last posting. Fair play to you Frank. You are obviously very confident in your product. The way that you have stuck to this debate is very impressive.

I will actually be visiting the States soon, might drop in for a look around!!

SB

SB,

Would love for you to visit. Safe traveling!!

-Frank

[DarrinWard]

I'll take you up on the offer also Frank. In actual fact I very nearly worked for your company one (few years ago), whilst the offices were being moved from Germany (If I recall correctly) to here in Dublin.

I forget the name of the lady to whom I was speaking at the time!! Small world!! .. This was back in the days of the "Unity 2000i".

Do you give out free samples while giving tours?? If so .. I think I'll opt for an Omnia 6 please!!

Regards...
Darrin Ward

[kiss FM]

It seems to me that this thread shows that it really comes down to personal taste as to which company makes the best processor. Both omnia and orban manufacture the best money can buy. Personally I prefer Orban but having said that I also think an omnia sounds great!

[Frank Foti]

Originally posted by DarrinWard
I'll take you up on the offer also Frank. In actual fact I very nearly worked for your company one (few years ago), whilst the offices were being moved from Germany (If I recall correctly) to here in Dublin.

I forget the name of the lady to whom I was speaking at the time!! Small world!! .. This was back in the days of the "Unity 2000i".

Do you give out free samples while giving tours?? If so .. I think I'll opt for an Omnia 6 please!!

Regards...
Darrin Ward

Group,

Anyone who's read this list is welcome to visit, if you're ever in Cleveland, Ohio!!! Not sure about the 'Omnia.6 free samples,' but we can fix you up with free admission to the Rock-N-Roll Hall Of Fame!!! :)

-Frank Foti

[Alan Partridge]

Maybe you guys should get in contact with Saddam, Georgie and Tony B. Ye'd have things ironed out in no time.:cool:

[Admin]

Just wondering if you might be able to post the following up on radiowaves as before there was alot of talk regarding Omnia processors. The following was emailed to me by Omnia,

Thanks a million


AUDIO PROCESSOR REPORT This is something I didn’t want to do but being listening to Salsa 98 for two months after the Orban 8400 has been installed; for the well being of the station, I am forced to do this report. I don’t want to create any kind of bad feelings but I think is my duty to do this. I was waiting for the Orban to be tweaked tuned or whatever, but time passed and the station still sounds bad, too much bass and the highs are distorted. Of course I know that there are a lot of variants on the taste of the individuals but in this case this is so bad that I am afraid that the female listener will evaporate (women has more response on the high frequency of the spectrum than men and hate distorted highs). Also I received a lot of complaints of the staff. Now with the findings, let me tell first that I know personally Mr. Bob Orban and think that he is the best in his field, his creation the Orban 8100 analog was the best processor ever made, but in this case I don’t know if was made to reduce the amount of delay or to decrease the amount of DSP power needed to accomplish the objective, but they selected a sampling rate of 32 KHz that in this day and age nobody uses. When I complained to the Orban factory they give me a song and dance about the top frequency that the FM has, but they forgot to tell that when things are done to the audio chain you need all the overtones and transients that you could accommodate. So we took an Orban 8400 and did an A B test with an Omnia 4.5 not even an Omnia 6 and found that the Orban 8400 has distorted high frequencies and the Omnia that uses 48 and 96 KHz sampling rate in its internal processing, is cleaner and less distorted. Of course if the music is Tropical or Caribbean like salsa and merengue the distorsion become more obvious, maybe with American music; say ballads Orban won’t be so bad and with rock who cares it already comes distorted. For the technicians, the way we did the test we used a CD player and fed both processor with it and A-B the analog outputs, of course keeping the output levels matched as close as possible. To keep the test simple we didn’t use the stereo generators or the final clippers, because to do this you will need an exciter and a receiver that could create more variants. We were trying to listen to the way the equipment processes the audio in the multiband compandor and equalizer, which is the first part of the processing if it is not clean there all is lost. For the test we used JBL speakers and a Crown amplifier, in an ideal acoustical environment to make the test as impartial as possible, and then played a lot of different CD’s with different types of music. We tried a lot of factory presets but could not take the distortion of the 8400 out, the Omnia was a lot better behaved, just using one of the factory presets it sounded clean, crispy (ladies will love it) and with lots of punch in the low frequencies. I am attaching an article by an engineer at Dominican Republic about the Omnia, and something that he does not say in the article is that he returned three Orbans 8400 to the Miami distributor to be sold for whatever amount, and bought five Omnias 4.5 and two Omnias 6. Also another engineer friend of mine that works in Puerto Rico went to Dominican Republic as a consultant and installed an 8400 in a station property of Juan Luis Guerra of La Pecera fame and returned to San Juan, next day Juan Luis call him on the phone and told him to return to Dominican Republic and take the 8400 out and put back the old analog Orban, remember that Juan Luis is a professional musician. Also from the Miami distributor I learned that he is selling ten Omnias for every Orban, that should tell us something. Before finishing this report let me emphasize that all the recording studios are using at least 96 KHz sampling rate and in some cases they go to 192 KHz, they argue that this higher sampling rates produces an audio as good as the analog original, remember that human voice and instruments are still analog, same as our ears. The famous Pro-Tools now has the Pro-Tools HD that goes to 192 and more…. Wirtten By Miguel Triay.

Mary Ann Seidler
International Director of Sales
Telos Systems/Omnia
+1 514 573 7019
www.telos-systems.com
www.omniaaudio.com

[Tabasco]

Well that's an extremely badly written and inaccurate post!

I was going to answer all the points, particularly regarding the sample rates used by the Optimod-FM 8400, (basically, using a sample rate of 32kHz yields a maximum frequency of 16kHz, which is above the cutoff of FM broadcast anyway) but as the post is so badly written I can't be bothered.

Just go to Orban.com and read the various white papers there for the full explanations.

rgds

[Optimud]

Oh dear oh dear, such criticism for someone who’s native language likely as not isn’t even English!!! Come on Tabasco, I’m sure that you wouldn’t always be so scathing were it not for the fact that you have a vested interest in Orban in Ireland, maybe due to you being a local dealer? Do you really think you fool anyone in these posts; I think most people know who you are and why you are so harsh toward anyone that prefers anything to Optimod. You seem to subscribe to the same mindset as the guys in the bay area that no one other than Orban has a right to produce or like another brand of audio processor???

The sample rate and its resultant audio cut off frequency issue has been beaten to death on many a message board, and if anyone is interested they should have a look at the bnet archives (http://www.broadcast.net/pipermail/radio-tech/) to see how this dead horse has been whipped in the states.

As for the white papers on the Orban site, you must be joking… the greatest yet has to be the press release that Greg and Bob have just invented a really good way to measure loudness… and guess what? They have measured that the 8400 is louder that the Omnia 6… Brilliant, what a staggering surprise! We should all ask ourselves why is it then that by Jay Brentlingers own admission in a recent Radio World article, the 8400 is being outsold about 3 to 1 in the states by the Omnia 6 and I have heard about 10 to 1 in the UK.

Others here might also like to know there is a white paper or two on the Omnia site (www.omniaaudio.com) although they don’t fill pages on how Frank and his colleagues prefer the Omnia to Optimod, or how he doesn’t like the kiddies jog wheel on the 8400 ;-).

Happy reading.

And no Tabasco, I don’t work for Omnia!
:p

[Tabasco]

I would be just as scathing if anything was criticised in such a inaccurate and badly thought-out way.

It's irrelevant 'who I am' (if it's relevant why doesn't 'Optimud' post under his real name?).

I make no secret of the fact that I prefer Optimods to Omnias; But that's a personal opinion, and likes and dislikes of audio processors is a very subjective thing. What suits one may not suit another.

In mentioning the white papers on Orban's site, I was referring to their explanations of how sample rates affect the way a processor performs.
As they explain, the 8400 is a multi-sample rate machine, sampling up to 512kHz in some areas where it's best to do so.

Of course other people have the right to produce audio processors in competition with Orban. In the same way that people have the right to have an opinion as to which is best.

It's when that opinion is backed up by inaccurate information that I disagree.

rgds

[7incher]

ive worked with both and from a prsenters point of view optimod is the best. never mind the technical side of this how do presenters feel on this touchy subject?

[DeargDoom]

I've jocked using both. Prefer Optimod. Most jocks I know who have used both machines say the same.

DD

[Optimud]

Yeah ok... but what do the listeners prefer? Audio processing isn’t there for the jocks! Most of the Jocks I know would be happy with a $300 compressor with a 'balls' control in the headphone feed to make them feel good about themselves.

You know, Orban were big advocates of this theory, if they weren’t, they wouldn't have created the 8400 on air delay unit with its 50ms latency that was unusable for ‘real time’ off air headphone monitoring.

For the record, I agree with them, if it sounds great to the listener, then the one or two people in the studio that don’t get the illusion of having elephantitus of the nuts, are really not that important.

In closing, I think that the sales figures of audio processors, and more importantly the ratings line up of the stations that use the box’s, count one hell of a lot more than what someone like Tabasco thinks.

[KJ]

Far and away Optimod for me

When it's legal to shag one of these babies I'll be top of the queue


KJ

;)

[engineeringman]

To hell with all of them.... Give me the 1983 home made radio dublin omniban 92000. now that sounds good!!!
seriously though... does anyone remember when they were building a compressor live on air about 10years ago. ratio about 1:20 and release time about 30 seconds. now that was funny!!!

:)

[Optimud]

Kelly, I’ve heard Orban are planning to release a new product at NAB over here this April, following on from the success of the 8400 and the opticodec, I understand they have just produced the Optishagger, it is a modified pre-shagged processor in the form of a half size Bob Orban… so 'if' you could bring your self to do it, I guess your wish may just come true.

Anyway, it would be nice if someone other than Omnia for once f&^ked Orban… sorry I couldn’t resist ;-)

[KJ]

Erm, I think I'll pass on that

Best set Optimod ever guys? The Carey tweaked one in Energy 103? Century 100? (set by some guys in Capitol London I believe) The last 6 months of Pulse 103? (Mark McCabe's settings)

What's yours?

KJ

;)

[Tabasco]

The Optimod 8400 doesn't have 50mS of latency, it has a maximum of 20mS, depending on how it's set up.
Orban decided this is necessary in order to control peak limiting efficiently, and gain as much loudness without distorsion as possible.
That's why the 8400 handles peaky material like the human voice cleanly, unlike the Omnia which still exhibits distorsion when pushed.
Best set up Optimod? Well on AM, Caroline when they returned on 319m from The Ross Revenge in 1983. Fantastic audio from an Optimod-AM 9000!

[neilex]

Tabasco, What, in your opinion is the best set up FM Optimod you've heard?

[Removed Member]

I have heard good results from both boxes ...

The Omnia 6 on 103.5 WKTU New York - sounds amazing.

The Optimod 8400 on Galaxy 102 Manchester - verrry LOUD ! and incredible audio processing.

The original Optimod and setting for Capital 104.4FM Dublin back in 1989 was quite hot indeed.

Century's audio was excellent too - really clear and clean with nice compression.

Y100 Philadelphia use an Omnia 6 - they only recently switched from an 8200 , will take some time to tweak their audio to be as crisp for New Rock as it sounded when they used the 8200.

I don't think many seemed to notice subtle changes (like dayparting) certain National stations used in the past couple of years.
What holds many engineers in this country back is fear of "overdoing it" When you sit in an autombile in the USA and flick betweeen say a Jammin'70's and 80's station and the local Rhythmic CHR u can noticeably hear the setting/compression depths/level differences right there on your radio.

My favourite audio total signal is that of 103.5 WKTU New York.
I love the way the compression brings the music up,the clarity,the brightness of sound,how it sounds compressed EVEN on clock radios and how it just has that "hairs on the back of your neck" type sound.I'm sorry,but within one week I was back in Ireland and none of the stations here PIRATE OR LEGAL have ever had that sound,or at least they may have had for up to 5 hours max - til it returned to the normal bland setting.

NRG 103 perhaps...
;)

[Tabasco]

Neilex asks me what is the best set up Optimod-FM I've heard - well I'll have to struggle not to blow my own trumpt about the 8100/XT2 we had on the original ABC The Hot FM in Waterford in the 80s. That did sound peachy.

I recall when Capital in London first got an 8100.XT2 it sounded quite nice, far better than the grunge they have on air now.
Nova's was good as far as I remember.

South East is I think the best sounding Optimod-FM in this country right now.

Sorry I can't be more objective!

[021]

Deterioration in audio over the years on certain stations probably has more to do with changeover to harddrive playout with its lossy data compression (rather than direct from CDs used before) than audio processing

if you put rubbish in you still get rubbish out

[Transmitters 'R' Us]

What, in your opinion is the best set up FM Optimod you've heard?

Answer: One where after correct setting up by the engineer is then locked in a cabinet away from presenters or PD's that know little about engineering.

[Optimud]

Groan... boring Tabasco... Capital - grunge... let me guess, by any chance… are they using an Omnia?????

Let me ask you for the record, have you ever heard an Omnia that you liked, or are you simply that blinkered and or biased?

Now on the subject of great sounding Optimods, unlike Tabasco I don’t have a huge axe to grind here, yes I prefer Omnia, but I have heard, installed and worked on many great sounding Optimods, from the 8000 through to the 8400.

I would doubt however that there could be any great difference between any of the standard 8100’s with XT2’s, there were simply not that many adjustments in the production units you could make, Bob Orban, rightly or wrongly limited the amount you could change. Anyone with a good or even reasonable understanding of processing could get those to play nicely…

They did however get quite nice when you messed with the guts of them, and added decent multiband compressor such as Texars, I still believe today that you would have to look far to beat an Optimod 8100 texar and card 5 combination for a great punchy on air sound, albeit a bit quieter than today’s top notch digital boxes.

[Tabasco]

Well blow me down, I find myself agreeing with Mr Optimud!

The Texar / 8100 / RC5 combo was very good, certainly very competitive. However I think with the stock 8100/XT2 you can get a very sweet, clean, open, yet still (until recently) loud sound.

I don't have an axe to grind over Omnias, Ive actually been disappointed anytime I've tried one or heard them here. I really think they should be better.

However, here's an interesting thing. One time when I was in Las Vegas, I heard a station there (KXPT The Point I think) which was great quality.

I met their engineer and he informed me they were using an Omnia 3. It did sound great.

Then, on a stopover in NY I noted several very nice sounding stations, all of which I later discovered were Omnia users.

My point is that I've never heard an Omnia in Ireland or the UK sound any good at all, and I've often herad them sounding terrible.

In the old days we would change stylii often to prevent just the type of distortion you can heard with some Omnias.

I wonder if there's an issue with the different pre-emphasis that can enable the unit to sound better in the US - I have a technical theory on this.

Red FM's Omnia 4.5 in Cork was sounding quite nice for a while, but apparently it wasn't loud enough, so they were forced to return to a grungy sound to get it loud enough.

And by the way, I'm not sure what Capital are using - anyone know?

[Optimud]

Guys... I’m sure that Tabasco will like this given that its opening a dialog possibly against another Orban competitor (and I use that term loosely, I don’t think it can compete)... has anyone here had experience of the Inovonics Omega? I had heard that it was just a PC mother board with a glorified soundcard and a Pentium processor…

I heard one at a show here a while back and didn’t think too much of it, do you guys have any on air over there?

I might have an opportunity to one open soon to look inside, another engineer in our group has got one on trial (under protest the PD likes the 250), I’m curious…. Does anyone know anything about it? I want to see its guts.... (Im funny like that)

[7incher]

who is in use more now in dublin? omnia or optimod?

[DeargDoom]

Could be wrong here but I think all but Lite, 104 and Newstalk use various Orban Optimods. I THINK (emphasise that now) that Newstalk and 104 use Omnia while I have no idea what Lite use.

btw ... I'm sure most of these stations have various gadgets and gimmicks they use in front of their processor .

But I'm not a techie.

DD

[greg browne]

Ive used both and i have to say the omnia 6 sounds great (well done to SP ) its very difficult to judge.

Best setting on 8100A have to say was the origianl energy 94 just before closedown. The mic and on air sound was crisp and nice, well done james davids.

If someone said to me here's a couple of grand go and get me a processor, id have to say optimod 8100a and xt2.

I mean the omnia 6 is how much, 14grand? thats the only thing.

[Hissing Sidebands]

Deargdoom wrote:
Could be wrong here but I think all but Lite, 104 and Newstalk use various Orban Optimods. I THINK (emphasise that now) that Newstalk and 104 use Omnia while I have no idea what Lite use.

104 have omnia (6 I think), 98 have Orban 8200
Lite have Aphex, Country and Talk have Omnia (4.5 or 3's I think)

They were all BTS builds or engineered

Spin have an Orban 8400, which even though BTS built it, they specifically requested it


Regarding the previous post on the Inovonics Omega - have heard it at shows, and Today FM had it on for a while - didn't think much of it to be honest

[Leigh Doyle]

Isnt the omega pretty much a hardware version of that broacast warehouse MBL4?

[7incher]

what is the third best option after omnia and optimod?

[Smart Clipper]

what is the third best option after omnia and optimod?

The Optimod!

[Shay O'Boyle]

I was doing some research on both units and this came up on google...


Now thats a debate !

[Hissing Sidebands]

yep, people in the radio business really can get worked up about audio processing!

It would be interesting to have another audit of processors around Ireland and the UK and compare them with the 2003 lists:
(any Corrections and additions welcomed)

98 FM, 104FM, Spin, no change (Orban 8200, Omnia6, Orban 8400 respectively)
Newstalk, was Omnia, now Orban 8400,
Q102 (was Lite FM) was Omnia, now Orban 8400
Country 106 was Omnia now Orban 8300
Red FM was Omnia4.5 now Orban 8400

[peter long]

Is it not also a question that the engineers in Ireland know the Orban like the back of there hands and that when it comes to setting up a Omnia they know the principal but dont have the experence with the brand?

There was one case in Dublin where a Omnia was replaced for a Orban due to the Orban going down. The Omina was so bad sounding that one of the top brass insisted that the Orban came back due to the very poor audio. In this case its was clearly a setting up issue as what ever brand you think is better the Omnia isn't that bad that top brass would pick up on it enginners yes but not management. Im not going to get into a debate on which brand sounds better as I think its a personal peference for people.

But going on what I have written above its not fair to judge the Omnia if when its been installed it has'nt been set up by somebody who knows what they are doing.
I put to you is it not a case in Ireland that the enginners know the Orban like the back of there hands and therefore know how to make them sound great and for that reason thats why so many stations have them here.
In the case of the Dublin scenario above the Omnia did'nt even get a chance due to how it was set up, it would have been interseting if somebody who knew the Omnia like the back of their hand had come in and set it up, would it still be in the rack today working?

[Hissing Sidebands]

Hi Peter,

I.m not going to get into a big battle over all this again, radio types put far too much emphasis the importance of 'Killer' audio processing - these days the difference between any of the main brands is relatively trivial as far as the listener is concerned.
Back in the 80', the difference between a station who had an Optimod, and someone who had no processing , or maybe a broadband recording type processor was huge! Now, even most engineers would be hard pressed to tell for sure which box is on in what station.

Al I can say is that the Omnias seem to need a lot of care and attention to get the best out of them - Stephen Foley at FM 104 took ages to get to his present settings, and Richei at Red also took many months to get their Omnia sounding someway decent.
The Orban will produce good results, howver straight out of the box.

This is my opinion only, and your mileage may vary....

[peter long]

Hi there Hissing Sidebands glad you posted back as I know you have been around for years in the radio industry and I am always interested in what you have to say.

[Transmitters 'R' Us]

If someone said to me here's a couple of grand go and get me a processor, id have to say optimod 8100a and xt2.

I mean the omnia 6 is how much, 14grand? thats the only thing.

Well said Greg.

I'll never let go of my 8100+XT2.

If there's any engineers here that have not listended to one well set up I suggest you do.

I wonder what an Ariane would sound like in front of one!

You'll be impressed.

Phil
Transmitters 'R' Us

[GaryCruze]

What an interesting read and I am impressed to see postings and a good debate from Frank and Bob from Omnia and Orban respectively.
In my opinion you can’t judge which processor is this best without an identical studio and transmission setup and for the reasons that Frank pointed out earlier in his post.

It can be down to user preference, some like more or less treble and bass than others. The audio chain setup before the processor will have a significant impact on the final processed sound, as will the audio chain after it leaves the processor. Also how competent is the engineer at fine tuning audio processors and how much time he has spent tweaking the unit. Not to mention sneaky management or staff tweaking with the equipment if they manage to obtain access to the processor. And finally, even your receiver can have a big influence on the sound.

For example, if you listen to an old analogue radio, very few stations will suffer from sibilance or stereo separation drop out on stations that slightly over modulate. Now try most modern car radios that are factory designed for the best possible IF rejection and sensitivity. You now lose some of the receivers available bandwidth for audio, this results in sibilance and distortion for highly processed and modulated radio stations that otherwise sound fine on an analogue tuner.

But taking all that into account, here is my critique of the audio setup on the Dublin stations

98FM Orban 8200
Flattish sound, microphone can sound harsh but does the job

Today Orban 8200
Audio is much lower than the competition and it lacks low frequency bass and in general punch and presence. There so much potential here going to waste. Tweak Tweak!

Spin Orban 8400
Personally I think Spin has the best audio, it’s punchy with nice low end bass and the high end is clean. Considering its loud, distortion is low and the audio dynamics are good.

2FM Optimod ???
Sounds nice and punchy but has noticeable lower audio than most of the competition, but it is enjoyable to listen to with little distortion. Maybe reduce the bass a little and crank it up.

FM104 Omnia 6
Too loud, occasionally there is stereo separation drop out on car radios (even when stationary). It sounds grungy and sometimes distorted (Although improving) with pounding bass and sibilance. Maybe this is due to the pre-processing before the Omnia 6 or simply to loud.

Unfortunately I don’t really listen to the other stations so I can’t comment and make a fair comparison with the Omnia versus Optimod, but it would appear the Optimod is the preferred choice for the main players.

Bring back the OptiBart (home made processor) from the HOT 107 days. Lol

Gary




[/SIZE]

[pulse reunion]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]2FM Optimod ???
Sounds nice and punchy but has noticeable lower audio than most of the competition, but it is enjoyable to listen to with little distortion. Maybe reduce the bass a little and crank it up.


Orban 8400.

Sadly, RTE NL are very strict about deviation levels. Spin on the other hand, are pushing the boundary well above the BCI's legal limit.

90.7 and 91.3 sound very different also so whilst 2FM is lower than many others, it is not as low as 90.7 would have you believe.

[GaryCruze]

I noticed that 90.7 has lower audio than 91.3, and I am sure there is a good reason for this ;)

But I like the sound of 2Fm, it sounds nice and full with very little distortion. If it was louder I think it would sound similar to Spin but not quite as processed sounding.

Is Today FM restricted by the same rules because they are national broadcaster?

G

[more music]

All stations whether they be community, local, national or RTE are governed by the same rules. In the case of BCI regulated stations the rulebook is a document called T&RT 9510.

http://www.bci.ie/documents/t&rt_9510.pdf

The maximum allowed deviation is 75kHz.

Pulse Reunion - Did you measure Spin?

[pulse reunion]

Pulse Reunion - Did you measure Spin?

To be honest, No I didn't, but I find it hard to believe that the audio is "that" well controlled.

Hats off if it is, but my suspicions are that they are slightly pushing the limit.

Correct me if I'm wrong !

Anyone got a meter and care to post an index?

[optimods]

Hi Guys,

Well i can confirm that Spin's audio is within 75khz, after all I set it up! They use a Aphex Compellor before the link , which is doing a lot of levelling, so I can then push the 8400 to it's near limit, by backing off the AGC and running alot on the multiband section and the final limiters, it was just a case of giving each section the right amount to do, using a Audemat MC4 analyser , deviation peaks to 74khz, but never 75!!

Cheers, Sean

[pulse reunion]

Hi Guys,

Well i can confirm that Spin's audio is within 75khz, after all I set it up! They use a Aphex Compellor before the link , which is doing a lot of levelling, so I can then push the 8400 to it's near limit, by backing off the AGC and running alot on the multiband section and the final limiters, it was just a case of giving each section the right amount to do, using a Audemat MC4 analyser , deviation peaks to 74khz, but never 75!!

Cheers, Sean

Well done Sean-Good work :king:

Any chance of a loan of the Audemat ?? :)

[GaryCruze]

Well done Sean,

It sounds loud with a lovely consistent wide frequency response across the entire audio spectrum. But yet it manages to retain the dynamics and hence it doesn’t sound over processed.

I use the same principle; the AVG should only serve as a leveller to deal with peaks or very loud audio sources. By allowing the multi-band processor to do the majority of the work, you are keeping the audio spectrum wide from 50Hz to 15Khz. This gives the station the lovely consistent warm sound that Spin has. By allowing the final limiter to work modestly you can achieve loudness by adjusting the clipper to the point of distortion and working back a few notches. I usually carry out some microphone speech tests while adjusting the clipper as the microphone tends to show up distortion.

After all that, I spend weeks tweaking it to get it right.

Gary

[more music]

Pulse Reunion: Any chance of a loan of the Audemat ?? And some humble pie if you have it!

Those Aphex units are sweet. I've been using Dominator II multiband limiters for years with an Optimod of course!

Anybody using an Omnia....anybody???

[more music]

I think I just pissed myself!!!

Go to the last post.

http://www.radiowavesforum.com/rw/showthread.php?p=80793#post80793

[pulse reunion]

Well done Sean-Good work :king: =Humble Pie !! :)

Omnia ! Aha ha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I A/B'd one with one of the Omnia engineers Vs Me and an 8400. First we just set up some presets in a studio with program input.

Omnia suckd BIG TIME

As a last resort, we allowed an On Air trial with the Omnia lasting all of 2 minutes before a call from above was made asking wot d :swearing: was going on !


I wonder if audio processing has a bigger part to play in a radio stations success than some would like think !

Me thinks theres demons inside them Omnia boxes.........:ranting:

[Groucho]

As a last resort, we allowed an On Air trial with the Omnia lasting all of 2 minutes before a call from above was made asking wot d was going on !

Sounds very uncharacteristic that anyone in that place would give enough of a shit to even notice anything was wrong considering the major fuck ups that go out on 2FM all the time. Anyone notice that Lyric FM was going out in the left channel of 2FM last week while G Ryan was still going out in the right? Or the major mess ups that go out overnight?!

Sounds like a bizarre test to put an untested processer into your on air chain for starters, then to base the decision on only 2 minutes of testing before you could tweak anything?!:nutter:

And why do 2FM use the daypart setting so much? The output audio seems to vary depending on what show is on?

G

[optimods]

No point in going over old ground again, but in hine sight, Omnia had certain issues that they would never address, even after personally meeting with Frank Foti and discussing client's issue's, Omnia never took any of this on-board. So we had no option but to hand back the irish dealership. Currently we will supply whatever processor the client prefer's and currently 99% go for Orban, which after the past 2 years of dealing with Orban products we have certainly made the better choice! The 8500 is certainly a sexy box!

It was interesting tough during the 2Fm Omnia V's Orban, that both Staff and management chose the Omnia processor on a blind audio test, but the second they were all told it was Omnia they had choosen, they quickly changed their minds!!

I do remember the look of disgust on Rick's face when we told him he had choosen omnia!!

But at the end of the day the better processor won!

Cheers, Sean

[Groucho]

No point in going over old ground again, but in hine sight, Omnia had certain issues that they would never address, even after personally meeting with Frank Foti and discussing client's issue's, Omnia never took any of this on-board. So we had no option but to hand back the irish dealership.

Hi Optimods

Interesting that you say that and that you handed back the Irish dealership. That wasn't before you had sold Omnia's into almost every station you were dealing with in the country!

I'm not trying to have a go here but if you look through the threads on this board, there was a raging debate over the quality of the processors, particularly over the ones on air in Ireland, there are even particular stations mentioned in detail. I'm genuinely interested why you would admit now that there were issues (issues that were obvious from the points made in the Orban vs Omnia thread) when your company stood over the boxes that you were sellling into the Irish stations at the time?

G

[DeargDoom]

Groucho, I sense you're moving in for the kill here!

Great question btw, but its probably not too fair to expect an employee of a company to publicly condone/criticise the activities of his employers.

Oh yeah - Orban every time.

DD

[Slicklink]

I sense he is too Dearg. This not the same company that still only list Omnia Gear under Broadcast processers on their website (eventhough the UK dealership is now through the UK) ?

ie other than profanity delays, the Omnia 4.5 FM, Omnia OMNIA-6 FM Digital Audio FM Processor, Omnia Omnia-3 FM Digital FM Audio Processor and Omnia 6fm.

[pulse reunion]

As a last resort, we allowed an On Air trial with the Omnia lasting all of 2 minutes before a call from above was made asking wot d was going on !

Sounds very uncharacteristic that anyone in that place would give enough of a shit to even notice anything was wrong considering the major fuck ups that go out on 2FM all the time. Anyone notice that Lyric FM was going out in the left channel of 2FM last week while G Ryan was still going out in the right? Or the major mess ups that go out overnight?!

Sounds like a bizarre test to put an untested processer into your on air chain for starters, then to base the decision on only 2 minutes of testing before you could tweak anything?!:nutter:

And why do 2FM use the daypart setting so much? The output audio seems to vary depending on what show is on?

G

Contrary to popular belief, some people do give enough of a shit, but sadly, as I'm sure you can imagine, with an organisation as big as RTE, it is very hard to keep all doors watched, all of the time.

Programming content and switching is not up for discussion here, audio is, and both are handled by very different duscussions.

I never said that the processor was untested. The Omnia 6 was tweaked and re-tweaked by both an Omnia representative and a member of the BTS staff. I cannot recall the so called "Presenter/Management" A/B session that took place, but I can assure you this what a matter of courtesy rather than part of the decision making process.

It was suggested by the Omnia supplier that perhaps they could try it On Air, as it was felt that the full potential of the unit could not be experienced by the monitor outputs alone.There should have been very little "Tweaking" under the circumstances considering the unit had been alligned to the same input/output as both the Orban 8200 that was On Air at the time, the 8400 that was being tested and the Omnia 6.

Look-The Omnia sounds SHIT- always did and as far as I'm concerned, always will considering the foundation it is built upon. Anyone who thinks otherwise serioulsy needs there ears/head checked. I said it at the time of the install of the 8400 into RTE and I'll say it now. THe prove is in the fact that the majority of stations are now back to using Orban product.

Omnia had a very good marketing campaign and yes I can see why some people bit the carrot, but time is always the best teller of tales.

FYI-2FM is using one day part setting, for the G Ryan show. Perhaps when CC1 was being used you might have noticed a difference in audio from show to show, but this is because CC3 had a new Studer console installed and CC1 was still running an old Calrec.

Both studios are now running a Studer so there should be little or no difference between shows, other than the G Ryan show as mentioned.

Sean, whilst I congratulate you on the sound of Spin, I must admit after further investigation, the deviation level is in fact above 74/75% on a regular basis. Of course this is not an isolated case, the majority of Dublin stations are breaking the limit (With FM104 + leg up at 90 % (Gotta love that Omnia!)).

Also, whilst I am sure your installation/configuration of the Aphex is TOTALly complimentary to Spins audio chain, I am sure it is the work of the 8400 that is TOTALly responsible for the impressive sound people have mentioned here. Furthermore, I believe it was someone TOTALly different to BTS that was responsible for this install and configuration !?

Correct me if I am wrong, but credit due where credit is due ! Yes/No ?

[Tabasco]

Hi Guys,

Well i can confirm that Spin's audio is within 75khz, after all I set it up! They use a Aphex Compellor before the link ,
Cheers, Sean

A Compellor before a digital link before a digital Optimod? Ugh!

The Compellor was good in its day, but even then had huge limitations and was the subject of many a modification to make it work well.

And its gain riding section is nowhere near as good as the Optimod 8400's - how could it be?

I'm so surprised you're using an analogue compressor, based on a 20-year old design before a digital chain! Whatever's in front of a processor's AGC needs to be at least as good as that processor!

T.

[Slicklink]

Presume the last 2 paragraphs are read in a waterford accent there Mark !

Arent threshold levels for deviation not regularly checked by Comreg ? Cant believe stations are at 90.

[pulse reunion]

Presume the last 2 paragraphs are read in a waterford accent there Mark !

Arent threshold levels for deviation not regularly checked by Comreg ? Cant believe stations are at 90.

Credit where due Slick, thats all. Someone chime in and correct me if I'm wrong please.

I had originally thought Comreg were on this, but I guess not.

Couldn't believe 104 !!

Everyone else was reading between 70 and 80% so I can only presume my meter was reading right.

[Tabasco]

No, Comreg don't check it, the BCI do.

You do have to make sure though Pulse, that you aren't getting any multipath interference when you measure, otherwise you can get exaggerated readings.

I can't see how any Dublin station could get away with peaking above 75kHz when anytime we're involved in one of their inspections they're very assiduous about it.

Its not even that they could turn it down for the inspection then turn it up again, as the BCI could just listen and measure at their office!

However, there's really no point in pushing the deviation a couple of points over 75%. It might give you a slight edge in loudness (which has no benefit) but can sound distorted when the signal goes weak or is subject to multipath.

T.

[pulse reunion]

No, Comreg don't check it, the BCI do.

You do have to make sure though Pulse, that you aren't getting any multipath interference when you measure, otherwise you can get exaggerated readings.

I can't see how any Dublin station could get away with peaking above 75kHz when anytime we're involved in one of their inspections they're very assiduous about it.

Its not even that they could turn it down for the inspection then turn it up again, as the BCI could just listen and measure at their office!

However, there's really no point in pushing the deviation a couple of points over 75%. It might give you a slight edge in loudness (which has no benefit) but can sound distorted when the signal goes weak or is subject to multipath.

T.

Sorry-BCI

Yes strong signal but perhaps there may have been some local RF inteference.

All other stations were just fine.

I'll check again another time.

[Hissing Sidebands]

The problem with remote measurement of deviation is largely multipath - not the same thing as local RF interference (although this may also show up as overdeviation).
Multipath occurs when signals from the transmitting aerial reach the receiving antenna by two or more paths. The effect can vary with time (due to changes in atomspheric pressure and temperature, thereby affecting the propagation speed of radiowaves slightly).
Even if the transmitter and receiver aerials are the same, it will not be constant at different frequencies (due to different wavelengths involved adding and cancelling to differing degrees) -so on estation may measure OK , while another will not. In addition, if a station's modulation is set with less headroom from the 75kHz limit, it is more likely to show overshoots due to multipath.
Finally, the spectral content and density of particular programme material can also have an effect on exciting particular overshoots caused by multipath or even any errors in absolute phase and amplitude response of the receivers' passband, mpx or ADC lowpass filtering and demodulator (although in modern deviation equipment, this effect should be minimal. It is still present however, and the Audemat is not any more perfect than many other units around, such as the Microgen (Information from a well known processor manufacturer who routinely buy and test any new modulation monitors)