New licencing laws (was: 104 talk show tonight)

[Iano]

Listening on the way in to work tonight , AK , touched on the subject of the new licencing laws ......
Garv [if i think correctly, it's the same Garv i think it is ]was the first caller .

He made a case for everybody within an industry most of us all are associated with ,and had the balls to call and give a bit of time to voice an opinion that has concerned myself and a lot of other people who depend on the Club and pub scene for our living .

Im just surprised that a lot of people dont seem to realise how f**kin serious this matter is, and how in the long term, it's going to effect our jobs , our only source of income [mine anyway ] and the way it's going to affect the future of ,not only the tourist industry , but the way our social lives are going to change dramattically .

Unfortunately a few callers [ not everyone ] were SOOOOOOOO ignorant to the problem facing us all , that i just turned off .[no offence to AK meant ]

So maybe it's time anybody on the board who clubs or DJ's for a living can start doing a bit of shouting and making moves to protect our jobs , because if this new law takes effect , im f**ked because ill be out of a job and unfortunately , it's all i have done for the past 18 years and would like to keep doing for at least 3 more [ok no smart comments cause im 40 ] .

So lets not depend on Garv all the time to help us all ok .Lets all do a Garv and call or do something similar to keep us all in jobs .

Ianoooooo[im with Garv on this one ]

[Ice Pop Daddy]

Have to take my hat off to Garv, so far he seems to be the only one to be going to some effort to get our point across. I know he met with his local TD recently in an effort to try to gain some support but he, like the majority of the Irish public, didin't have a clue about the new laws.

What is so confusing at the moment is the fact that no one seems to be definite on times etc that McDowell is proposing to change. What is definite however is that it's to become law on July 4th.

As for the public, they don't give a shit, do they? They will when they get kicked out of wherever they happen to be drinking. Of course by then it'll be too late

[max power]

it will be taken to a cabinet meeting next tuesday, the final papers have to be submitted by 11 this morning, so the final details were only sent to relavent departments two weeks ago for observations, if all is ok it will be taken to cabinet next tuesday and if they give it the go ahead it will be all done and dusted next week, but the dates of when it will become actual law will not be known until then, i agree with garv and have discussed this piont with him, but we and that includes me, have acted like fools with drink and a time would come when we had to pay for it and that time is now.

all you have to look at is the amount of sick days on a monday and friday, the business community who are very powerful have put a lot of people under pressure to have the sunday and thursday times changed so that they can get a bit of work done on the days after.

i hate the changes but something has to be done about the drinking culture in this country, like it or not .

[The Real Stuttering John]

let's get a few things straight here:

clubs will have to close at 1.30 on a thurs and 1am on a sunday with 1.30 on a fri and sat coming later after the summer.

There will be no entertainment allowed during the drinking up time. i.e. when the bar in a club stops serving at 1.30 the music stops and the lights go on and EVERYBODY is thrown out together onto the streets.

People won't go to a nightclub that closes at 1.30 even if the bars close at 11.30 becasue by the time they get to a club it will be 12.30. In the old days at least the music used to go till 2/2.15

There are 100 more points to bring up but as usual everybody just sits on thier ass in these situations untill it is the LAW and then it is too late to change

[max power]

have you seen the proposed bill ?????

something needs to be done, but this is going too far as was said on gerry ryan, if everybody is thrown onto the streets at the one time, all hell will brake loose.

thursday, i just start at nine and finsh earlier i think ????

sunday i no longer work so that doesn't bother me.

[The Real Stuttering John]

this will KILL clubs

WILL KILL tourism. No families with kids allowed after 9pm in anywhere that serves alchohal. So a family from france can't eat in a licensed premises or experience traditional music etc

WILL make violence worse instead of staggering times , bars 11.30, late bars 1.30, club, 3.30 people will all be out within a 2hour period of EVERY venue. Approx 500,000 people on the streets of Ireland at the same time with small amout gardai!!!

Will Kill the need for a DJ ( many bars now use satellite or some computer) Clubs NEED a DJ

Will put up to 10,000 people out of work

Will kill taxi drivers as who will need a taxi after 1.30 in the moring anymore

Basically it will be illegal to dance after 1.30am anywhere in ireland any night (inc fri and saturday after the summer) Ever see the film Footlose?

The bill says no more drinks promotions or cheap drink allowed. Did the Government not compla\in that drink was too dear?

[The squire]

Its relly nice of the f**king government to make up our minds for us and decide when we should be going to bed in order to get up the next morning. What the f**k??? I though by letting us on the premises they agreed we were ADULTS!

THIS CANNOT HAPPEN. Imagine going home at 1am? I know teenage discos that go on later than that, and no, im not joking!

[Wastedchildhood]

Farcical ain't it. Funny though we are pretty much agreed that as a society that we have problems with the misuse of alcohol but where people have late drinking these problems are not as readily apparant; maybe they do but we don't see it as tourists. it's a silly way to make an effort to be seen to do something which is very much in our sociological profile as a nation; after all there was alcoholic and drink related problems in Ireland long before the Dance Halls of showband days.

[max power]

does anybody think this will go like the penelty points, it will be all talk for a few months and then all will go back to narmal, espcially down the country, the garda will turn a blind eye after a few months once there is no trouble, the first sign of trouble they will use the laws there, but no one seems to agree with me that somthing needed to be done, lets face it we are a nation of piss heads, every social event involves drink, there is even bars in certain cinemas........ a middle point needs to be reached.

[Iano]

Ok , so now that we are all agreed , how about us all getting a petition together signed by , DJ's , barmen , doormen, lounge staff, cleaners, office staff, from all over the country ,or better still , protest outside government buildings .......Anyday next week suits me fine .........Anyway , if anybody else has a better idea , im sure everybody is willing to listen ....

Agree with max but , were not all pissheads [ok some are ] but when i get drunk i end up talking shite as my previous posts prove , and not kicking some guys car or pissing up against somebodys doorway ........

So next move on this needed NOW .
Iano

[father_ted9t9.]

This country is a farce when it comes down to this. I agree with all the above said from max and john and all others, and think that mr mc dowell needs a reality check. For generations this country has been known as The party capital of europe, people travel from all over the world specifically to party here because of the "Craic", and this is all going to end when this comes in. Sure its going to cut back on the amount of alcohol intake from punters but it is going to also rise the amount of people drinking at home which will un-doubtedly bring back alcoholism in droves(If youve got drink at home and you can't go out, getting pissed at home will be the new thing and with no closing time in your home, theres going to be trouble!!). Along with the this, there will also be the come back of late night bars which will have to stay "Underground" As you would say making the whole bar/club profession a very dodgy and un-safe business. Fair play to ya john, lets get something going to stop this! I'm in anyway

[Bren Long]

Funny isn't it.
The vast majority of us are responsible, honest, hard working, taxpaying members of the electorate.
We've supposedly elected a government, bestowing them (in part) the authority to act upon and rid our society of the unlawful and unruly in order to make this place a better and safer country to live in.
Yet we all get classed the same as those cretins who are unlawful and unruly!
Our priveleges are being whittled down because of the behaviour of a minority.

And, we've all got the media to blame for this.
Instead of concentrating on the urgent need for an increase in the numbers of Gardai on our streets (which ultimately costs me, you & McCreevy too, more in taxes than a change in legislation), they gave us story after story of how we are a nation of alcoholics and binge drinkers hooked on alcopops and drunken fistfights.
More media pressure was placed on the government for drinking than for a complete lack of adequate law enforcement and protection. Where else would you get it!

The new bill will also open the floodgates for legal counter-action.
You can theoretically be charged for being drunk and with the new bill in place, it is not your responsibility any more, but that of the publican who served you.
Bad news for any licensee who's customer happens to be involved in a drunken disorderly situation, even if it's outside on the street.

[The squire]

The petitions sound like a good idea. We could all get the staff at the bars & clubs we work in to sign a generic letter. we could say on averege each club would have 30 staff (inc bouncers, floorstaff, bar staff, managers, djs) if 20 of us did the letter thing, you would have 600 letters! We can get more than 20 peeps.

Whos gonna take charge of this?

[Darren B]

Petitions are all well and good squire but they wont change the governments mind. Shame on all of you who voted Fianna Fail !!!!!!!

The only action to take is protest after protest after protest outside government buildings. This way at least the media who with their reports have probably caused this problem in the first place, can put pressure on the government by printing our side of this argument.

I also urge everybody who will be affected to ring their local TD today lets put the pressue on and really turn the screw on this government !!!!!!!!

[KJ]

Just spent half an hour with loads of points but lost it in a cyberhole somewhere (think this PC needs a Defrag)

Anyway, a quick summary of it

*Respect to Garv (as always)

* Wasnt there talk of Club owners offering to *pay|* for extra Guards?

* A Petition sounds like a plan

Id lots more to say but this computer is 2 minutes away from been thrown out the window!

KJ

[Iano]

Ill organise press coverage , but we need a show of strength ,not just a few bodies here and there .

Just let me know wot you all wanna do .

[Darren B]

if it will help guys i can get mixmag to do a report on this.

[Ginger]

Here is a breakdown of the recent legislation to enacted in two weeks if all goes according to plan in the little land of Dail Eirean

The Government two weeks ago unveiled wide-ranging measures aimed at combating the country’s alcohol abuse problems. A new intoxicating Liquor Bill will be drafted, and the measures include:-

1 Bringing closing time back to 11.30pm on Thursdays

2 Banning entertainment during drinking-up time

3 Allowing non-uniformed Gardai to enter pubs to enforce the law

4 Banning children from pubs after 8pm – even if they’re with parents

5 Allowing publicans to set their own minimum age limits – such as only letting in over 21s or over 25s

6 Id cards for under 21s

7 Ban on all drinks promotions and happy hours.

8 Gardai will also be given powers to film punters leaving pubs as proof that the pub owners had served drunk people

Needless to say, these new laws are not going down to well. Labour’s Joe Costello said that we’ve heard most of these proposals before from Michael McDowell, and it must be remembered “the Minister has now been in office for twelve months - yet we do not have a single additional piece of legislation to help combat alcohol abuse. The Minister has been all talk and no action”.
Fine Gael’s John Deasy said that these proposals are “a series of half measures that will not go far enough in tackling the problem”.

Let’s look at some of the Minister’s proposals:-

1 Bringing closing time back to 11.30pm on Thursdays – many people thought that closing times should be done away with all together, yet the Minister is going backwards. Why just Thursday – and not the entire weekend? Most problems seem to be on Friday and Saturday nights. The reason for Thursdays? It just goes to show you the mentality in Government at present . Some TDs are concerned that people have to be up for work on Fridays, so they don’t want late night drinking.
It may come as a huge shock to those muppets in Dail Eireann – but not everybody works Mon-Fri from 9 to 5 in this country. Many people have to work Saturday mornings – maybe the Government should tag them, or put a stamp on their forehead warning barmen not to serve them a drink on a Friday night??

2 Next genius suggestion:- Allowing pubs and clubs to set their own minimum age limits:- How many people are 18, 19, or perhaps 20? How do people feel about the fact that you probably won’t be getting to most nightclubs in Dublin in the near future? Even if the clubs don’t have an over 21s or over 23s rule, the doormen can now use it as an excuse to keep people out . Lads we know how that worked .

3 A couple of months back, Fine Gael suggested raising the drinking age limit to 20. Do you know what Michael McDowell’s response to that was? He said that is was a “puerile, facile suggestion that citizens aged 18 and 19 should not be allowed have a pint in a pub”.
It seems that Noel Dempsey isn’t the only Minister who likes to backtrack from time to time…

4 Id cards for under 21s:- surely anyone seeking to buy drink should have proof of age? If the Minister and the Gardai can’t enforce the current age limit of 18, what makes him think he can enforce a higher limit? The Minister says that anyone under 21 would have to show their driving licence or passport if they want alcohol. Perhaps some clever civil servant should remind the Minister what the purpose of a passport is. It’s unfair to expect young people to carry a passport everytime they head into town to go for a drink.

5 The new measure that is causing most concern amongst publicans is the suggestion that non-uniformed Gardai can enter premises – and film punters outside. If these punters are drunk or disorderly, the pub or nightclub will lose their licence for a set time. Now, it doesn’t take a genius to work out that many people go to pubs and clubs to get drunk. Is it really the publican or club manager’s fault if these people are drunk outside? Can a nightclub manager take responsibility for the actions of perhaps 1,300 punters on a Saturday night?


This is another example of an out-of-touch Minister bringing in ridiculous nanny state laws – rather than trying to address the root cause of the drink problems – like the fact that most of the population think getting pissed is gas, and there’s no shame in getting so drunk that you can’t stand up.
Why not have adults take responsibility for the example we’re setting to kids.

In relation to the Saturday and Friday law i have not heard of any change apart from the fact that the entertaimnet during the drinking up period will be scrapped . Which just means 2:30 am instead of 3:00am , music stops. Sunday will be the worst hit as all clubs have to close at 1:00am according to the law but the is the current law , its just not enforced .
Also in relation to Thursdays the new law applies to superpubs , meaning they will have to close at 11:30 pm and not nightclubs as they will still get a late exemption. So that could be an advantage to the club with punters arriving earlier.

Its time the Night Club Association open there sorry little mouths instead of being afraid of the power of the uniform. I remember recently a Garda Inspector and a group of his lackeys raided one club I worked in. It was a Sunday night and he wanted to clear all the fresh pints of the tables because it was after hours (Only just) the club owner told him to get out unless he was willing to walk around and take the pints of the punters and then call back up to deal with the riot that would ensue . He promptly left and no prosecution was brought. If every nightclub stood up they would hardly close them all down, there would be public outcry. This is like prohibition

How many of you guys will allow this to happen.Fair play to Garv and Robbie Fox (Spokes person for the nightclub industry) they were also on 98fm last week getting there point accross .

[paul_de_dj]

Just a question about the guardai filming outside..............

for example........if I have 6 pints I'm merry...............if i have 7 I'm drunk.............

When i bought my 7th pint i wasn't drunk but i was when i was finished and went outside, fell over and was filmed by a guard. So can the publican be done for serving a merry person?

Also was i right in hearing that under 18's WILL be allowed in function rooms etc. so long as it's not the main bar?

Has anyone noticed that people are going out later because of the later opening hours.......I remember going out at half 7 on a friday but now it;s more like half 8 or 9........or is it just me getting old. That's all gonna come back if (WHEN) the hours change...

[Voyeur]

Originally posted by Ginger
5 Allowing publicans to set their own minimum age limits – such as only letting in over 21s or over 25s

hey guys,

i know i dont know much about this topic, except thats its a disgraceful abuse of power by the government (yet again)

however, if im not mistaken, no 5 is definetely a breach of recent EU discrimination legislation, maybe this could be a relevant point??

anyway, petition, protest or anything else, count me in, its about time something was done, these cowboys are walking all over us :mad:

ill shutup now :(

[KJ]

Excellent post Ginger

KJ

;)

[The squire]

If any votes for fianna fail next time around, Im sending the boys around.

Any money, In about 8 years, bertie ahern will be in the same boat as albert reynolds!!

[Sarah Baybay]

I'v just read the whole thread (i'd been too busy b4 to actually read up on the whole ting) but OMG i'm soooooooo mad!
I'd NO idea it was gonna affect me (and every other bloody person in the fekin country!) so much!! i'm actually shocked that this cud possibly be allowed to go through, its fekin stone-age.

I'm ashamed of our government.

Repeating wat KJ said, Ginger that was most excellent :)
No point in repeating the points cuz they've been set out perfectly but yeah count me in if theres a protest!! i'm all hyped up and very hostile rite now lol i'd probably kik sum government slack-ass rite now if i cud :D

[max power]

Originally posted by The squire
If any votes for fianna fail next time around, Im sending the boys around.

Any money, In about 8 years, bertie ahern will be in the same boat as albert reynolds!!

and what boat is albert reynolds in ???????

[father_ted9t9.]

the one going to leitrim!

[Mark]

Please please send this to all the TDs in your area today. The Liquor License Bill 2003 may become law tomorrow (Wednesday). The future of nightclubs and nightclub djs may depend on part of the Bill being changed. Details below


Dear

I understand that the Intoxicating Liquor Bill is due to be finalised in the Dail on Wednesday. I have read the proposed legislation and have major concerns regarding parts of it.

More specifically, I have concerns about Section 12 of the Bill which prohibits entertainment during drinking-up time. I understand that this was proposed by the Gardai with the belief that it would help reduce public disorder on our streets. I am of the firm belief that this will actually make the matter worse rather than better. As I stated in my previous letter, the primary activity of a nightclub is to sell entertainment, a place where people can dance and meet other people. The sale of alcohol is an ancillary part of the business. If a person wanted to drink for the night, they could stay in as late bar where they can drink until 1:30/2:30am with no admission charge. However, other people want to go to a nightclub where they will pay an admission charge of €10- €15. Nightclubs need to have an admission charge as it is their main revenue source. The only thing that differentiates a late bar from a nightclub is that the nightclub has a dance licence. Therefore, people will stay in a nightclub 30 minutes longer than those in a late bar because they can dance.

If there is no entertainment during drinking-up time, people will leave both late bars and nightclubs at exactly the same time. This will result in more people being on the streets at exactly the same time and consequently, the risk of public disorder will be greater. There is anecdotal evidence internationally from police authorities and supported by ‘best practice’ models that public order is better maintained when there is a sequence in the closing times of pubs, late bars and nightclubs. Where this happens, there are less people on the street at any one moment in time, less people at fast food
outlets, less people at taxi ranks (which results in more taxis being available) and consequently, a lower risk of public disorder.

In conclusion, I believe that Section 12 of the Liquor License Bill should be removed before it becomes law. I understand that it may be passed on Wednesday. I am looking to you to convince your fellow TDs and Minister McDowell to make the relevant amendments to it.

Yours sincerely

[Turiel]

So, its Thursday. What happened? Anyone know?

(im kinda out of the loop here being half the world away!)

[Darren B]

was going to ask the same thing myself

[Jimbob]

Acording to the Herald this evening the new Bill was passed yeasterday but thats all i know .
sorry

[Al Murray]

This is crazy people!!

In the next 5 years we are going to end up back in the stone age. Thats why i'm leavin:)

All i can say is PROHIBITION.

Boooooooooo!

[father_ted9t9.]

right lads and lassies, now this law has been passed on wed last. What the hell?? Feckin mc dowell and his anti drinkin policy, if anyone had of seen him at the budweiser derby on last sunday, they would have thought it was an evil clone or something! He was lashin back the "Free" Bud untill the early hours. Moderation...yeah right, brown envelopes more like from certain other departments in trouble at the moment because of the "Old way" Of drinking here in ireland.

anyway enough of my speil, as far as i know the law can be appealed for up to 1 month after approval. Is there anyone out there who has any ideas what to do next??

[Darren B]

Ok so this is passed.

Can anybody tell me where this leaves all us Dj's. Promoters, bar workers etc ??

When do things kick in and excatly what is happening.
( I know people have broken it down on previous pages, but I want to know exactly what has been passed when it happens etc)

[Bren Long]

Originally posted by father_ted9t9.
Is there anyone out there who has any ideas what to do next??

If the new legislation doesn't work, we'll propably see prohibition being introduced.

Not being disrespectful here, but we're gradually becoming more like a middle-eastern Muslim state with all this tightening and increasing the severity of our laws.

[The Real Stuttering John]

24th June 2003

PRESS RELEASE

GREENS CRITICISE INTOXICATING LIQUOR BILL

The Green Party has criticised the Intoxicating Liquor Bill. The Party has called for implementation of existing legislation rather than the implementation of draconian measures to limit the availability of alcohol.

"This Bill is anti-family, anti-tourism, and anti-fun," stated the Green Party's Justice Spokesperson Ciarán Cuffe TD today; "We wish to see the existing laws enforced prior to the introduction of new legislation.

"Transferring cases of discrimination from the Equality Tribunal to the District Courts will water down the powers of the Equal Status Act, and there is a danger that those who are discriminated will find it difficult to access the Courts.

"Banning children from licensed premises discriminates against families and children. It will place undue restriction on events such as weddings and family gatherings.

"Banning dancing during drinking-up time is however the most ludicrous of the Minister's proposals. With this measure Minister McDowell is assuming the character of a parish priest with a black thorn stick. We challenge the Minister to defend this retrograde proposal."

The Green Party intends tabling substantial amendments to the Bill.

[Darren B]

As I said above

Can anybody tell me where this leaves all us Dj's. Promoters, bar workers etc ??

[KJ]

To answer your question Darren .........

Singing for our supper in Grafton Street ;)

[The Real Stuttering John]

if you did anything to try and stop it what can I say it sucks and many people ( including on this board) tried to stop it

if people here did nothing to try and stop this going through then tuff shit is what I say

The amount of people I know in this business including publicans, DJs, barmen and club owners who were going mad and then turned to me when i asked them what have they done to stop it said, wait for this:

" nothing, what can i do, I won't make a difference"

there was virtually no oposition to this bill because people sat on their arses and did nothing to oppose it.

This all sounds like a big rant from somebody who is pissed off but hay let's move on . look at the positive side we can work less hours!!!!

[Darren B]

Did anybody watch newsnight last night ? They were on about the new drinking laws over here and interviewing McDowell. Man is he living in the stone ages or what.

The UK are abolishing closing hours and what are we doing. Were are cutting back on opening hours and in the process probably putting quite a few people out of work and if not that severe certainly putting most of us out of pocket.


The new law means clubs have to stop the music when the clubs stops serving drink right ? Do you think this will actually happen or is it one of these things that is law but will be ignored.

[Iano]

Im sure the Gardai will now finally find something to do rather than arresting scum bags and policeing the streets and protecting civilised people . Lets be honest here everybody , late drinking and making a living is now a crime , it'll be up there with car theft , assault and battery , burglary and shop lifting .

Imagine it , in 2 years time we'll all have criminal records .

Have to agree with RSJ , nobody done enough [including the nightclub industry ] to prevent this f**kin pre historic law from being passed ..

Iano.

[Bren Long]

Just an observation on the "binge drinking" reason behind all this....

I don't believe that the drinks people have between their first drink and last orders is the main cause.
It's the 3, 4 or more, pints that they order for themselves to horse down between last orders and chucking out time.

Think about it the next time someone is outside after closing time, falling around the place and his/her mate is saying that they "were grand until the air hit them".
Nothing to do with the fact that they probably drank the same amount in the last 45 - 60 minutes than they did for the 3 hours leading up to it??

When I lived in Jersey, they had a simple solution in place.....reduce the drinking up time to 15 or 20 minutes from the time they stop serving. If there are still drinks left on the tables after that, then they get taken.
Now, many will say that you'd be asking for trouble if you tried to do that, but after a few weeks, the punters get the message, and they start to fall in line.....ordering the one last drink.
I've seen it implemented in Jersey and it did work, and within weeks, pubs would be cleared in less than 30 minutes from the time the bar counter shutters went down.

I know it's got nothing to do with the rules governing opening hours, but at least it's a start in tackling the real issue of disorderly people falling all over the place in the streets after closing.

[Darren B]

never a truer word spoken Bren

[Bren Long]

Originally posted by Bren Long

.........within weeks, pubs would be cleared in less than 30 minutes from the time the bar counter shutters went down.


Just to expand on that point, when people spilled out on to the street, they tended to be more 'with it' instead of falling around in a stupor, or being highly aggressive.

One positive knock on effect was that because they didn't have the opportunity to stay comfortable in the pubs until all hours, folks were more eager to move on quickly to the clubs, and because they weren't pallatic after the post last orders binge, there was less hassle at the clubs' doors too.

[KJ]

Something tells me the Gardai will turn a blind eye with respectable clubs and clamp down heavy on the ones with a reputation


KJ