Dj's vs Recession

[buzzbomb]

I apologise if this comes across as having a go at agencies[its not] , were all fighting for work but still trying to keep wages and standers as high as we can but unfortunately we are coming up against organisations , sorry i'll re-phrase that, COWBOYS, who are prepared to offer low cost services to the club and bar indusrty and take advantage of the decline of cash strapped club and bar owners by offering yellow pack dj's at yellow pack prices .
Everyone of us who dj full time are having to agree to a wage cut but thats normal considering the economic climate. Most of the dj's i am in communication with are feeling the pinch, yes the few quid has dipped but the dedication hasnt suffered , we are still giving it 100% because we have to . Midweek gigs are few and far between , 5 years ago you could take your pick of a Wed gig or maybe even a Tues gig. Times were great , i was even working Mondays and Tuesdays , it was so good you could afford to take a weekend off . Now unfortunately all us working dj's who depend on this indusrty to make a living , dj's who are trying to keep our rates of pay to a standard thats worthwhile are suffering and competing with START UP agencies who are offering a service thats on a par with slave labour.
The reason im posting this is to point out to all dj's who LOVE what they do , even if its not full time but are dedicated and passionate about what they do and LOVE music ,are willing to keep standards high and fight their corner . Yes we all need to pay the bills but its important we draw the line against operations such as 'Recession beating dj's' , a company that is willing to offer nightclubs and bars a service thats too embarassing to even mention.
Bottom line here is , its very difficult to refuse work if money is tight , none of us will refuse work and nobody will think any less of you as an ndividual dj for trying to make ends meet , but its very important we try negotiate good rates of pay be it midweek or weekend . Dont let agencies rip you off, be it a start up agency or a so called recognised agency who has links to FM 104 , yes a certain individual who has no respect for the industry or the dj's they employ or claim to represent , an operation who claim to be the market leaders , an individual who refuses take phone calls from dj's and passes the buck. I sincerly hope we can all survive and ride the storm and hopefully get through the bad times . I also make no intention to hide my own identiy here because most people know who i am ....Ian.

[mini-fanatic]

Where do you start..?

I don't know if any of us will ride out the storm as you put it Buzz, its just way too quiet at the moment, most of the full timers are getting by... but thats it !

There will always be under cutting, there always was even in the good times !
Its just back then there was more quality corporate work which required... lets just say a 'superior' standard.

There are still a lot of us who as individuals care about what we do and care about our clients.

[Red Room]

One of the problems in the DJ trade is that it is very easy for people to pass themselves off as DJ's as it is with any service trade, such as plumbers, builders, etc. Sure everybody has a brother/sister/cousin/friend who is a DJ and they get to do that 21st; a few hours on Limewire run into Maplin and €1,000 later you have one of their yellow pack rigs. However it's only after the event when you end up with a mess that you realise that you have just booked what is often an inferior tradesman with shoddy sound or Mp3's with blips on them and you have just had your party ruined for the sake of an extra few €. And, having worked in other arms of entertainment, they are all as bad with upstarts thinking they deserve ten gigs a week and top buck.

In the case of a party and you take a chance on a fake DJ, you end up having had a shite DJ at the party but TBH venues quickly catch on when a DJ isn't good enough quickly enough. In my experience, venues know who they have on the books and stick with them for the regular work or else they use an agency which, let it be said, has many advantages including a pool of what should be decent DJ's you can rely on. Venues are more likely to demand a pay cut rather than jump ship and risk another agency/DJ as it's a case of the devil they know than the one they don't.

[mini-fanatic]

TBH venues quickly catch on when a DJ isn't good enough quickly enough..

That is a fair point Red Room, and I would have to admit what I see these days in Pubs / Clubs is that they want, if anything a much better DJ for the same money they were paying for someone who was quite average 5 years ago.

What is really hard though is when you are dropped for someone cheaper... only to find six weeks later they are looking for you to come back.

How do you tell them to sod off when work is thin on the ground..?

[Turiel]

What is really hard though is when you are dropped for someone cheaper... only to find six weeks later they are looking for you to come back.

How do you tell them to sod off when work is thin on the ground..?

Would you?

They've tried the cheaper route, found out it sucks, and they want you back.

Lesson learnt, in most cases. Yes, your pride takes a hit that they kicked you out in the first place but at least now they'll know better and your gig will be that much more secure.

[Caretaker]

mini-fanatic - - you don't ..

just take the gig back and tell them .. you want a time commitment (eg year)from them in order to remain loyal to the venue ..

[mini-fanatic]

Well I though long and hard about it, even thought of increasing my fee but I just don't feel the same about the place, staff or management after getting the shaft, so sod em'...

I got a mate of mine in to do it instead, so at least the gig has gone to someone decent who needs the money..

Its not pride or anything, its more like being dumped and then your ex wanting you back after she shagged some other bloke.. you're just not that desperate... thanks !!

[ste mc d]

I've been djing for 10 years I only went full time last year with an agency that i have been gigging for for 5 years. I cover on average 3 gigs a week 50 weeks a year from clubs and pubs to mobiles. Basically what i'm saying is that i depend on this industry 100% for my income as do many others. There seems to be alot of anti-angency post on the forum and i could never understand it but never commented as i think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

The reason i'm posting on this point is that I feel that some agencies and Dj's that are working for the agencies are adding to the problems
For example we were exibiting at the RDS two weeks ago and we were talking to alot of publicans and club owners. One publican from a well known venue on the northside told us that he was using a well established dublin agent and he had dj's in his venue for €120 on a saturday night. Now if you take the agents cut from that even if it's €20 it's still only €100 to the dj. I personally don't think any decent dj would work on a saturday night for that money. So it's either a young guy starting off or a guy that can't get a gig anywhere else. I know the agency i work for can't get a dj of any standard to do a gig for €100 on a Saturday night. How can other individual dj's or agencies compete with this without the standard of Dj suffering?

It seems that instead of standing their ground on price and putting the best product they can out there, they have just jumped on the low cost bandwagon and it seems that we are all now effected both individual djs and agencies.

[Ginger]

I've been djing for 10 years I only went full time last year with an agency that i have been gigging for for 5 years. I cover on average 3 gigs a week 50 weeks a year from clubs and pubs to mobiles. Basically what i'm saying is that i depend on this industry 100% for my income as do many others. There seems to be alot of anti-angency post on the forum and i could never understand it but never commented as i think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

The reason I'm posting on this point is that I feel that some agencies and Djs that are working for the agencies are adding to the problems
For example we were exhibiting at the RDS two weeks ago and we were talking to alot of publicans and club owners. .

So you are defending the agencies because you work for them or own help run one ? Just curious as you said " We " were exhibiting in the RDS . The point i make is that because you had a good relationship with the owner of the agency or you are the owner , you get a good rate but as you see from your own post agencies now are bringing the price down .
I ran an agency a few years back when things were different but there is no way i would try it now as i could not bring myself to putting a DJ out on a sat for less then €250 for the DJ and i know this is not the case in many agencies now .

The other reason is that certain agencies have no scruples whatsoever . I felt i had a good relationship with an agencies owner only to find he was trying to shaft me from a gig . I decided to leave the gig anyway as the manger was doing a cracking job at f**king the club up all on his own .

Maybe we should start a thread on club Managers and How some owners hire clowns with little or no experience to run a club worth millions . They spend all their life savings on a venue and hire a clown just out of nappies with little or no experience to run it into the ground . He comes in with high flying ideas about music policy , of course based on his own personal taste . Tells the DJ what to play even though the DJ is hired on his professional judgment of reading a crowd . He brings in ridiculous door policy's that counteract the main catchment of the club . To top it all off , his best mate is a DJ ( in his bedroom) and he feels he should be working there . I would like to point out I'm generalizing but you get the picture .

Don't get me wrong not all managers are like this , some are good at what they do .
The best manger i ever worked with ( i used the word " with" ) was Val Roe . We worked together on three occasions and she was knew what was going on all the time and the proof was in the pudding . We ran Cocos it was jammed every night back in the 90s . We moved to Faces , it was jammed every night until the residents messed things up,. We moved to Lillie's and again business went up .
I am working for her brother Philip and he shows the same enthusiasm that Val showed .

John Madigan would be next on my list . The " Rog" as he is better known . Worked with him for 12 years in Club M and 6 years i think in the Plaza . He was the a looper but a great manager .

I would love to list the worst but the law prevents me and trust me there is one the deserves a real mention actually two .

Maybe there are other good managers out there ?

Cheers

[mini-fanatic]

I suppose I was not one to be anti-agency either,

We have all had to work via an agent somewhere or other,
There are agents and agents though..

There are the 'pay the lowest amount possible' and the ' pay the right person.. Their lowest possible fee' sort of agent.

But yes it does come down to manager; I find it’s the Owner that is the real problem because he will put in a crony or a relation to run his entertainment.

Usually a person with no experience but a good sales talk.
The Crony knows the owner only speaks the language of 'cost' and thinks that he could DJ himself if he had the time...!

Bad Managers.. ? Yes ... Most of them,
But the real problem is the Owner who gives them the responsibility.

[Caretaker]

I've been djing for 10 years I only went full time last year with an agency that i have been gigging for for 5 years. I cover on average 3 gigs a week 50 weeks a year from clubs and pubs to mobiles. Basically what i'm saying is that i depend on this industry 100% for my income as do many others. There seems to be alot of anti-angency post on the forum and i could never understand it but never commented as i think everyone is entitled to their opinion.

The reason i'm posting on this point is that I feel that some agencies and Dj's that are working for the agencies are adding to the problems
For example we were exibiting at the RDS two weeks ago and we were talking to alot of publicans and club owners. One publican from a well known venue on the northside told us that he was using a well established dublin agent and he had dj's in his venue for €120 on a saturday night. Now if you take the agents cut from that even if it's €20 it's still only €100 to the dj. I personally don't think any decent dj would work on a saturday night for that money. So it's either a young guy starting off or a guy that can't get a gig anywhere else. I know the agency i work for can't get a dj of any standard to do a gig for €100 on a Saturday night. How can other individual dj's or agencies compete with this without the standard of Dj suffering?

It seems that instead of standing their ground on price and putting the best product they can out there, they have just jumped on the low cost bandwagon and it seems that we are all now effected both individual djs and agencies.

I know who was at the RDS and can assume ...

50 - 70 euro is the average cut leaving you at in or around €180 for your Fri/ Sat

As I posted somewhere else here ..a local venue told us that they were given a quote of €120/€140 for friday and saturday nights with invoice supplied..

An agency want to make money nothing else

[Caretaker]

Sorry could not edit above..

Agencies will have the couple of golden boys who are well looked after and used for the gigs that they know need a high standard of DJ .. the rest sometimes get the button pusher.. it's a business and as above is there to make a profit not friends..

as you said the venue owner using the €120 a night DJ is happy to do so .. let him off.

on the + side for agencies ..

If you do not have the time to go from venue to venue selling your DJ service the agency in this case will be the best option and are entitled to a cut for leg work ..

[Red Room]

I ran an agency a few years back when things were different but there is no way i would try it now as i could not bring myself to putting a DJ out on a sat for less then €250 for the DJ and i know this is not the case in many agencies now .

Given how things are the last 2 years, Ginger, I'd be happy with less than that a gig for the next few months.

I'll print up the flyers if you man the phones:p

[mini-fanatic]

The big problem with agencies seems to be consistancy,

At least that is why I was wanted back..!

For the first couple of weeks it was one of the golden boys, who probably did a good job after that it was a lucky dip.

Of course agents deserve their cut for what they do, as long as they charge a realistic fee in the first place.

Going to a greedy pub owner and offering him a DJ for €80.00 a gig less than I was getting ie: €170.00 for a Saturday night is just not on...
If they went in at the same money and offered maybe longer hours then I would have done the same.

The agent is taking €30.00 and paying €140.00, and has DJs queuing up for his gigs. This is what has us all screwed.

[Caretaker]

The big problem with agencies seems to be consistancy,

At least that is why I was wanted back..!

For the first couple of weeks it was one of the golden boys, who probably did a good job after that it was a lucky dip.

Of course agents deserve their cut for what they do, as long as they charge a realistic fee in the first place.

Going to a greedy pub owner and offering him a DJ for €80.00 a gig less than I was getting ie: €170.00 for a Saturday night is just not on...
If they went in at the same money and offered maybe longer hours then I would have done the same.

The agent is taking €30.00 and paying €140.00, and has DJs queuing up for his gigs. This is what has us all screwed.

Let them off... how many times are we hearing the same thing "consistancy"

I am happy doing my own thing .. and had the same problem as Ginger .. paying €250 to ensure the standard of DJ was high...

Still think if there was a clamp down on venues to supply PPS numbers of entertainers.. the €80 - €140 DJ... would soon disappear...

will be well retired when this happens ....

[leggo]

Had a...shall we say...frosty debate with a friend and potential future client when I quoted my rates for her the other week. She was claiming that her bf, who organises several college nights, used DJ's for E120 max at these events. I pointed out that they're playing Russian Roulette with their events and went into specifics as far as costs, pointing out that they are using DJ's who clearly value their skills so low they are more than likely LOSING money.

She came around and saw it my way in the end. I would be semi-confident of getting a call off her bf in the near future.

Funny thing is, before she got all uppity with me, I would've done her a deal without thinking about it. Now...pfft.

Selling yourself is a crucial part of DJ-ing. If you can do that well then there's still plenty of punters out there to be convinced. That's before you even take repeat bookings and recommendations into account. It CAN still be done. It just takes more work than perhaps it once did.

[Caretaker]

Had a...shall we say...frosty debate with a friend and potential future client when I quoted my rates for her the other week. She was claiming that her bf, who organises several college nights, used DJ's for E120 max at these events. I pointed out that they're playing Russian Roulette with their events and went into specifics as far as costs, pointing out that they are using DJ's who clearly value their skills so low they are more than likely LOSING money.

She came around and saw it my way in the end. I would be semi-confident of getting a call off her bf in the near future.

Funny thing is, before she got all uppity with me, I would've done her a deal without thinking about it. Now...pfft.

Selling yourself is a crucial part of DJ-ing. If you can do that well then there's still plenty of punters out there to be convinced. That's before you even take repeat bookings and recommendations into account. It CAN still be done. It just takes more work than perhaps it once did.

€120 cash gig is worth approx €220 invoice gig ... take vat and tax etc off the €220..

In most of these cases the DJ is a student and €120 a night is a lot of money to them..

I'm at the stage in life where I do not beg for work .. nor enter a discussion with a venue on how cheap the current DJ is .. I just walk away and find the DJs name and email it to revenue... if he is above board he has nothing to worry about..

DOG EAT DOG... gone past the give a s**t stage... why should I be made feel like a rip off merchant when I quote what I think is a fair fee

[Lord Nelson]

So the more a venue pays, the better the DJ?!

Believe me when I say that I have experienced some right plonkers who have charged through the nose for their third rate services. I also know some jocks who a year ago told me they would'nt walk into a venue for less than €250 (for a plug & play). One of them is now doing gigs for as little as €80. When your mortgage is in arrears & you have a family to feed its a question of survival not professional pride.

For my own part I generally do gigs that interest me for whatever reason irrespective of the money. Then again I am fortunate not to be on my uppers!!!

[Caretaker]

So the more a venue pays, the better the DJ?!

Believe me when I say that I have experienced some right plonkers who have charged through the nose for their third rate services. I also know some jocks who a year ago told me they would'nt walk into a venue for less than €250 (for a plug & play). One of them is now doing gigs for as little as €80. When your mortgage is in arrears & you have a family to feed its a question of survival not professional pride.

For my own part I generally do gigs that interest me for whatever reason irrespective of the money. Then again I am fortunate not to be on my uppers!!!

Yes been there with the "third rate plonkers".. gave up a contract once as it was "only" paying €220 (walk in) and DJs were moaning it was to low .. the venue wanted me to provide ..insurance (which I have) .. experienced DJs etc ..

more hassle than it was worth ... now I'm sure it would be a different story with the DJs in question..

I have lost gigs due to VAT .. making tax returns makes you more expensive as a €250 + 21% vat quote (Me) V's €250 cash (other DJ) quote for a mobile.. to a regular joe who is not vat registered..

guess who will get the gig .. the cheaper quote ..

[Bren Long]

One publican from a well known venue on the northside told us that he was using a well established dublin agent and he had dj's in his venue for €120 on a saturday night. .......How can other individual dj's or agencies compete with this without the standard of Dj suffering?

I'd be quite cynical about that publicans claim to be honest. Particularly as he was browsing through a trade exhibition looking to haggle for a better deal to suit his bottom line. If any industry is struggling these days, it's the licenced trade and they're out to cut as much costs as possible.
Sounds to me like he was chancing his arm to see if you'd offer a cut price rate.


There seems to be alot of anti-angency post on the forum and i could never understand it but never commented as i think everyone is entitled to their opinion........The reason i'm posting on this point is that I feel that some agencies and Dj's that are working for the agencies are adding to the problems

The issue surrounding who's at fault for the problems is akin to a mexican standoff. Punter needs agency, agency needs DJ, DJ needs punter. Everyone in the mix (pardon the pun) is at fault at some level. Only a DJ know his or her own worth. Only an agency knows what they're prepared to charge and pay out, and only a customer knows what he/she is prepared to pay. Unfortunately, it is all too often the DJ who gets the bum deal, but if a DJ knows what their own worth is, then why are they doing gigs for an agency and/or punter who they know is ripping them off? If an agent isn't right for someone, then find another one.

Thankfully I didn't choose to pursue this industry as a profession, but if I did, I wouldn't leave it solely to an agancy to find all my work for me, unless I absolutely trusted that agency.


Ginger & mini-fanatic, sadly there are very few manager/owners out there who really know what they're doing.

[buzzbomb]

Thankfully i dont work for an agency and never have , although that dosent mean i wont have to call one of them at some stage , a phone call that would be fun to listen to .
Seriously , the way the club and bar scene has developed recently i can fully understand why a lot of lads turn to agencies to make a few quid especially those who depend on a third party to get them work . I have no problem with an agency rep putting in the hours trying to get contracts and building a client data base if they are offering and most importantly supplying a service thats been aggreed to . There are a lot of really good bar and club dj's on the circut now , well capabale of doing their jobs & could be very comfortable in most styles of gigs . My gripe is not with agencies in general , it's with a certain agency who dont and wont treat their dj's with respect or even respect their ability . 'Yes mate your good enough to get a call from us , but dont complain if your money is not in your bank account on time or if its not the agreed amount ' . I genuinely feel for these guys who only want to make a living doing what they are good at but are treated like children . Lets call a spade a spade here , Dublin based dj agency beginning with the letter E control a number of venues , they employ dj's , a lot of really good experienced dj's who depend on their services but they dont control them on just a professional basis , they control their working lives and dictate to them where they can work and who they can work for . Totally illegal .
Ok, if an agency can make up to 30 euro a gig for putting the work into a contract then i can see no complaints if the designated dj can get a decent nights money , unfortunately E** dont see it that way , i know because they droppd a dj's money [a guy i know very well] from 220 euro to 140 for a Sat night gig,10.30 until 3.00am , he complained and was told ,your a great dj but we can get somebody cheaper.

I'll give you all a bit of time on that one.

[Caretaker]

Wonder if they have dropped the DJs pay and still charge the same amount to the venue.

[mini-fanatic]

220 euro to 140 for a Sat night gig,10.30 until 3.00am !!!!

.

Yeah and I suppose it's a bedroom wannabe with his laptop who will play the tunes...
Jesus lads I'm just getting so depressed with this business,
it just has to get better... I just hope it's soon.

[Caretaker]

Tell me .. at what point are we going to say enough is enough and ask for a clamp down djs not declaring, venues paying cash, Bands that are currently giving us the finger by offering a "FREE" or "LOW PRICE" DJ service ... and anyone I left out that insist in pi**ing all over us..

Agencies should also be looked at to ensure that all DJs they are subbing the work to are declaring..

PS here's a link that may be of interest

http://www.hig.ie/Default.aspx?alias=www.hig.ie/musicianinsurance

[mini-fanatic]

I've been reading through the 'New DJ Equipment' thread and the feeling is the same on that one too..

Look it all came down to three things over the last 10 years..

1 Equipment became cheaper, much more readily available and the computer age caught up on DJing.

2. Music and file sharing is rampant and to be perfectly honest ... unstoppable !

3. The bargain / Budget brigade.. who did a Ben Dunne on us and cut prices.

Now while I agree with you whole heartedly, tell me this...
Are all of the DJs you work with ligit..?
Or just some of them..?

In my case its around 50/50, and bad and all as it is I'm not about to snitch of people I know for years.

[disc]

so is the way to get rid of the influx of wannabes to report them if they are not paying tax

[mini-fanatic]

so is the way to get rid of the influx of wannabes to report them if they are not paying tax

There are those who I suspect are full time and declaring nothing... and probably drawing the dole as well.
They should be investigated and prosecuted.

But what about the guy starting off... the one gig a month dj ??
Well that was me 17 years ago... was I registered.?

No of course not.. ! It took me a few years to get on my feet and then I got myself an accountant, later on I registered for vat etc.

We all had to start somewhere...
What gets my back up is the agents who are offering DJs to venues for as little at 150.00 including VAT !!
That means they are paying 80 Euro a gig after they take the vat and their percentage.

[Caretaker]

I have no interest in bars/Clubs .. spent enough years being treated like crap ...

My gripe.

Bands offering a Free or €100 DJ service .... our xmas market gone and after band wedding market gone ...

As for DJs not being ligit .. fair play to them as they are getting away with it and will continue to do so as revenue do not work weekends or evenings...

Every form we get..... pay on time or risk an audit and/or a fine ... why would it not bother you that others are laughing at you being legit ....

Can someone tell me how bands are dodging the vat as surely they are earning enough at €1500 - €2500 + per wedding to be registered for vat...:swearing: rant over

[Red Room]

I have no interest in bars/Clubs .. spent enough years being treated like crap ...

My gripe.

Bands offering a Free or €100 DJ service .... our xmas market gone and after band wedding market gone ...

As for DJs not being ligit .. fair play to them as they are getting away with it and will continue to do so as revenue do not work weekends or evenings...

Every form we get..... pay on time or risk an audit and/or a fine ... why would it not bother you that others are laughing at you being legit ....

Can someone tell me how bands are dodging the vat as surely they are earning enough at €1500 - €2500 + per wedding to be registered for vat...:swearing: rant over

Don't get me started on bands:swearing:

[mini-fanatic]

We are all on the same page when it comes to bands :swearing:

Would I like to see something done about them..?
Of course I would ... but what exactly can be done..?

Revenue are only interested in Big Fish or those who are already compliant (for some bizzare reason) so what can you do..?

Really... !! What can any of us do..?

If you talk to good professional bands ... they complain about bad bands destroying the industry and want something done about it..!

[leggo]

Really... !! What can any of us do..?

Offer a unique service that justifies your price tag. Start from scratch if you need to. Do what you have to to stay ahead.

It's the same as any industry. The world changes and business has to move with the times. DJ-ing is particularly cruel in this respect: because you're out there independently and there's no security whatsoever.

Other businesses can put together focus groups and can create unique commodities that sell: nobody is watching the DJs back plus we're all reading off the same playlist (let's face it: at any one stage you're looking at only about 20-25 songs that people want to hear. The rest is padding it out in your own way...which non-DJs don't rate as a skill).

The cruel reality of it is that if you haven't done work TODAY on making yourself worth your perceived value...you're not worth the work. A lot of people will sit back and complain and think they have done the leg work required over the years that they should be enjoying a secure, full-time gig. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. People are spending all day thinking up ideas to stay relevant or get their foot in the door. If you're not putting the same effort in as them then they're going to get ahead.

It's sad. It's harsh. But it's also the industry. And it's a bitch of an industry too...without doubt. That's the way it is though.

I'm not having a go by the way. That post wasn't even directed at you specifically mini-fanatic. It just needs to be said.

[mini-fanatic]

Leggo, I was refering to bands.. who are soaking up the Wedding market.
We are also talking about agents who want to pay rediculous rates.

We are talking about those who are cash in hand only... who can under cut us.

I offer an incredible service.... a first rate sound system, serious lighting etc etc..
In fact some people will actually laugh at me because I'm still in the venue packing up a good hour and a half after the night has finished..
So it's not about being unique or different at all..

It's all about the ease at which bands can make us obsolete.

[leggo]

So to that I'd say look for new avenues to ply your trade. There's more than one way to skin a cat, after all. If you see weddings as a no-go (which I wouldn't personally), then think of other means. Where does your first class service fit in where there is none already?

[Red Room]

So to that I'd say look for new avenues to ply your trade. There's more than one way to skin a cat, after all. If you see weddings as a no-go (which I wouldn't personally), then think of other means. Where does your first class service fit in where there is none already?

It may have escaped your attention but where does your wisdom suggest we look for these new avenues? All across the city, venues and pubs are closing down at a rate of several a month. People are having less parties, as a rule they are getting married less and they are cutting corners all over the shop when they do have a bash. Clubs don't open half the week any more with Sunday and Monday gigs non existent. Pubs all over the town see fit to cancel their mid week quiz nights as they are barely covering prizes. And on top of all this, there are more and more DJ's of various levels of skill and ability vying for those few gigs that are still out there. People like you bidding for the same work I am and this is coming from a DJ who literally can and has done almost anything to make a few € and towns all over the country.

You can say we can expand or try new types of gig or markets but the work plain isn't there so it's genuinely foolish to say we can look harder or try new avenues, it really is.

[leggo]

Having two meetings alone this week that prove you wrong. Will share the wealth when I get my ish sorted out and settle in. But I AM telling you the work is there for those who think outside the box.

[mini-fanatic]

Leggo mate.. I was approached by a decent sized venue in Meath in April.
They asked me to give them ideas, as well as to supply DJs to boost turnover.

Same as you we had meetings, and put on weekend nights, promotions and I looked at the advertising.
I did the local paper and a leaflet drop.

Anyway to cut a long over told story short..

The venue IS empty...
It would take months to build anything up... but the owner wanted instant success.
Say the magic words and whumph...!! Busy pub...

There are less punters... there is more drinking at home than ever.

We lasted till mid way through May, he called me on the Thursday..
'Don't need the DJ tonight..!! Just Saturday this week... :ranting:

The Venues are on their knees, any possible idea that works ... ends up in every pub.

Karaoke, Quiz nights, Talent contest, Poker, darts competitions you name it.. I have tried it.

I'm not being defeatist here either because I'm still trying and will keep trying until they put me in a box and bury me.

[leggo]

Good to hear man. And I'm sure it's just a slump too, you can't keep good talent down.

Basic business dictates, though, that you can't blame your consumer base if your product isn't selling.

For example, when Aldi and Lidl shops began opening around the country, Dunnes couldn't just say that the customers they were losing were cheapskates. They had to re-adjust and say, "Okay, as ridiculous as it may seem, the business has changed. And we have to change with it or we'll risk the company's future."

More similar to the DJ's plight is the case of music (and indeed film) piracy. Metallica tried to fight it: but when Napster went, Limewire and PirateBay came along. Artists and labels could continue to resist it and spend more money on lawyers than they were losing on record sales...or they could see that this wasn't going away anytime soon and figure out new ways to earn money for their talents. Now you see the likes of Eminem, recently, allegedly having a big hand in his Recovery album being leaked. They're going with the movement - re-adjusting and evolving with the rest of the world and thriving - instead of resisting it and falling.

Finally, to give a personal example, I spent 4 and a half years in the Irish pro-wrestling industry. I was involved a lot in promotions and marketing of the particular company that I worked with. I remember a smaller company started running and, after getting poor houses for their first few shows, went onto boards.ie and started ranting about how fans weren't supporting homegrown talent. Where online fans especially would have been open to ANYONE coming in and offering something news...the tide changed and the only people supporting them said: "Well, sorry, but you're not giving us anything WORTH supporting" No prizes for guessing how long that particular promotion lasted.

The DJ-ing business has changed, for better or worse. You can continue fighting the fly-by's one-by-one...but when a random bloke who owns a laptop, downloads free mixing equipment and thinks the idea of getting paid E80 to go to a club is GREAT...do you really see any point in resisting it?

We can either sit here, lament, piss, moan, threaten, all we like but will that put food on the table? Of course it won't. It's time for ALL of us to realise the state of play and either decide whether to change up or get out.

[Graham]

leggo , i think youre being a little bit naive here, people arent talking about being creative or edgy or thinking outside any box

what most are saying is :

djs play in pubs and clubs

pubs and clubs are closing down

therefore there are less places for djs to play

therefore more djs now compete for the same , much smaller pie

djing is becoming much more accessible with the advent of technology, this too adds further competition into an already saturated market

there is not enough to go around

some will be without work that once would have had work

even those with talent may loose out to those who "download free mixing software" and get paid €80

and yes , youre right , if you really are brilliant you may get paid to dj in spite all of this, but to say that "if you try hard enough" (which is realistically what you're saying) youll still get work , is utter rubbish

give that "try harder and think outside the box" line to the 436,936 currently unemployed in the country

maybe they should just "try harder and think outside the box" - sure theres jobs there for all of them , the lazy, unimaginative feckers

[Ginger]

leggo , i think youre being a little bit naive here, people arent talking about being creative or edgy or thinking outside any box

what most are saying is :

djs play in pubs and clubs

pubs and clubs are closing down

therefore there are less places for djs to play

therefore more djs now compete for the same , much smaller pie

djing is becoming much more accessible with the advent of technology, this too adds further competition into an already saturated market

there is not enough to go around

some will be without work that once would have had work

even those with talent may loose out to those who "download free mixing software" and get paid €80

and yes , youre right , if you really are brilliant you may get paid to dj in spite all of this, but to say that "if you try hard enough" (which is realistically what you're saying) youll still get work , is utter rubbish

give that "try harder and think outside the box" line to the 436,936 currently unemployed in the country

maybe they should just "try harder and think outside the box" - sure theres jobs there for all of them , the lazy, unimaginative feckers


You know your right , maybe they should try harder and think outside the box but many wont as they are 9-5 workers who from they day they left collage were handed jobs and have no concept of what it means to get work off their own bat . If i hear another waster say to me , " Whats the point in looking , there is no jobs out there " ill beat him . There are jobs out there you just have to make the effort and lower your standards a little . I have advertised in my office for a full time and part time staff memeber for the last two weeks on all the usual websites and guess how many CVs we got in the office , . Would you believe two , and two losers looking for a fas course .

There is a shortage of good jobs , particularly in rural ireland and the jobless will have to travel to the citys again to get work . In this recession you just have to work twice as hard to get the same money . A guy said to me the other day " id even work in MacDonalds if i have to " I said " have you sent them a CV " and the answer was no he had not .

There was a loser on the LATE LATE SHOW about three weeks ago and he was about 25 and said he was out of work two years ...two years , for F**k sake two years ago you couldnt walk down the street without been offered a job . Nobody on the panal questioed this tosser as to why he done nothing about the fact he was out of work for two years . He just accepts that he is a statistic and as he said " there is nothing out there "

Leggo is right , if you try hard enough you will get the work and if you cant get the work , make the work for yourself , maybe not the money you would have got two years ago and maybe not the full house cool gig but you will get it .

Thats all , my rant is over now :-)) Shit need to check my blood pressure .

Niall

[leggo]

Graham, poor example to use the recession. Personally, I've gone from being made redundant in my old dayjob to currently working 3 different jobs. So if your point is to say 'it's impossible to get jobs these days', you really made it to the wrong person.

[mini-fanatic]

Graham for what it's worth... You are spot on.

[Graham]

Graham, poor example to use the recession

poor example to use the recession??!?!


the TITLE of the thread is DJS VS RECESSION

the recession is inherently linked to this entire debate!

thanks mini fanatic btw

[Ginger]

Graham for what it's worth... You are spot on.

Another good man down because he agrees with the populist and almost socially acceptable notion that there is no point in trying " sure there's nothing out there " . It's almost part of irish culture in today's downturn to constantly moan and whinge instead of getting on with it .

There are many hardship cases that exisit but there are just as
many wasters in this country who all along have been quite happy to freeload and now they feel they have justification to freeload off the state funds .

We are all involved in this costly exercise to find somebody to blame , enquiry after enquiry to find out which greedy f!!ker was responsible for the crises , million after million on another pointless enquiry just so we can say " it was the regulator , the minister for finance , the banks " . Really does rely solve the problem , nope it just adds to the frustration and costs money , money we don't have !

So let's get through this together and be positive and lose the negativity


Niall

ps ; forgive the typos , on my phone

[Graham]

Another good man down because he agrees with the populist and almost socially acceptable notion that there is no point in trying " sure there's nothing out there "

I'm almost offended by that.

At no point did I ever say that one should stop trying.

I pointed out a simple economic truth.

There are less opportunities for this profession than there were 5 years ago.

Thus, people who would have had work 5 years ago may no longer have it.

And i agree with you 100% about being optimistic , keep knocking on the doors and buy a battering ram and break the door down if you have to, sure i'll help you hold the battering ram for what its worth.

But you're above post implied i am a waster.


I originally ended this post with humor. But in reading back over your post ive changed my tone.

You imply my simply economic truth is "populist". That i subscribe to a social norm which you consider below you .

You then subtly transition into "dole payments" and people who sponge off the state. All from my one view.


I am not defeatist.

We are ALL populist.

I am not on any from of social welfare payment at all.


I dont think you could have made more assumptions in one post if you had tried.

[Ginger]

Let me say first , I appoligise unreservedly if you were offended by the remarks as I feel I may have written it slightly out of context . I used your reply to vent a little angry rant at what seems to becoming a viral problem in this economic turbulance , so please accept the appoligy . I sm pretty damn sure your not a waster and never meant for you to take that from the context of the post .

Yes we live in tough times but the constant media blame game has passed it's sell by date and it's time to focus on recovery and put the existing politicians where they belong , in some field to be fed there own droppings . We need to look for people who can get us out of the mess . Social welfare reform , move people from welfare back to work for the state for the money were handing out on a weekly bassis . Get money back to education , which has always been our strength . Get the scammers on benifits from both this country and other countrys back working and if they don't want to work , well f!!k them , they get nothing .

I could go on and on as it is the one subject I am quite passionate about because just like most of the working population , I'm paying for the problem each week .

Cheers

niall

[DeargDoom]

but the constant media blame game has passed it's sell by date

niall


No it hasn't. It would be remiss of any proper financial journalist not to keep on this topic; how we went from being one of the worlds success stories into being a basket case nation. Again.

Also, you may feel the blame game is over, but you haven't started really paying for NAMA yet. I fully expect to hear squeals of protest from over Swords direction in the coming months!

DD

[Graham]

Let me say first , I appoligise unreservedly if you were offended by the remarks as I feel I may have written it slightly out of context . I used your reply to vent a little angry rant at what seems to becoming a viral problem in this economic turbulance , so please accept the appoligy . I sm pretty damn sure your not a waster and never meant for you to take that from the context of the post .

niall


was big of you to say that man

i appreciate it :)

(as i said above i also agree with a lot of what you're saying too, optimism is the only remedy imho)

[Ginger]

No it hasn't. It would be remiss of any proper financial journalist not to keep on this topic; how we went from being one of the worlds success stories into being a basket case nation. Again.

Also, you may feel the blame game is over, but you haven't started really paying for NAMA yet. I fully expect to hear squeals of protest from over Swords direction in the coming months!

DD

I do agree to a point and there has already been angry rumblings in swords as my rates have doubled to pay for the lack of funds in the Fingal area but shout till I'm blue in the face achieved nothing apart from frustration. I also have six staff who are u happy because they are paying more tax but again this is all part of what we are getting used to , paying for the mistakes and corruption of the few in the golden circle , who are know sunning their golden asses in the costa del Florida .

So what do we do now , brood forever over who was at fault and will they go to jail and in the meantime spend a few more precious million on more enquires or another wasted tribunel just for the heck of it and even then nobody will pay .
NAMA is a joke and extremly optimistic

[leggo]

Just to hammer my point home, I got offered a club residency on a temp basis tonight (permanent pending on numbers). Can't go into much info yet til the i's are dotted and t's are crossed. But I didn't need to undercut or do anything else people here are claiming is keeping them out of work. I simply came to a nightclub boss with a good deal worth paying the money that I wanted for it. And it was so good that I ended up getting a better deal leaving than I bargained for when I entered. That was thanks to HIM offering me the add-on's, not me chancing my arm and getting lucky.

I really don't want this to come across as a gloating post, as I know there's plenty of talented guys here harshly stuck for work, but I want myself to stand as living proof that there IS a way even in this day-and-age. Most are probably going to read this and think 'arrogant twat', but if one person realises that this one incident proves their beliefs are misguided and gets the motivation to go back to the drawing board then it's worth it.

[Graham]

Most are probably going to read this and think 'arrogant twat',


i did think exactly that for your first few posts , but with that last one i totally see what you were trying to get at

well done btw, getting a residency in this climate , fair dues man :)

[leggo]

Cheers man, appreciated. As I said, it's a temp pending on me increasing numbers so I'm not counting my chickens yet. But I've big plans that just might be crazy enough to work.

And I really should learn how to use these emoticon thingys to get the tone of my post across a little better! Generally I'm just being dry whereas people might take it as prick-ish.

But, as I said, the important thing is that if I can do it, anyone with the skill and know-how can.

[mini-fanatic]

Nice one Leggo, hope it goes well for you mate.