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radio free king
2nd October 2002, 09:28
Just copied a very interesting feature from mediumwave.de Ideas About The Future Of Medium Wave

Sound Quality must be improved
Because of the poor sound quality, the medium wave has become very much out-of-fashion in many parts of Europe. In some countries, it is still alive though, e.g. in the UK and Spain or America. In these countries MW programmes exist, which cannot be heard on FM. This is the key to MW attraction I think. However, MW stations often have less success because of the poor sound.

Is DRM the future?
The digital standard DRM (in Europe) is currently pushing forward and will probably be introduced sooner or later. The DRM-site claims that FM-sound quality (mono) will be possible on medium wave. As a matter of fact this is nonsense because you can hear the strong digital reduction to 48K in MP4AAC. Listen to the audio examples on the DRM website. Nevertheless, compared with today's AM sound the DRM appears to be an improvement. There are less problems with fading. And you would only receive one station at a time. Probably DRM would be an improvement but it would take time.

DRM introduction would take time
New receivers would be needed for DRM. In poorer countries only few people could afford them immediately. If you've ever had a look at radios in 3rd world countries this becomes clear: People still use receivers from the 60ies and 70ies, they repair them again and again. It would take much time until all receivers are exchanged.

In the rich world people could afford new receivers. But only a few would buy them. The big majority is not so interested in radio and satisfied with FM. International radio does not attract people so much. This is why people wouldn't spend too much extra money on DRM. The only chance is that DRM technique must becomes as cheap as normal AM. Then the industry would start building FM/DRM radios as they now produce FM/AM combinations. In the best case, the DRM community would grow slowly. So it would again take many years.


Is a co-existence of DRM and AM possible
At least the DRM-developers claim that. On the other hand independent peolpe who observed the test transmissions report that DRM causes a lot of background noise which is not limited to the DRM channel. If you live close to a DRM transmitter whole segments of the MW seem to become useless. The second question is if you can still decode DRM if there is an AM transmitter in the background. Unfortunately I haven't had an opportunity to test it yet.


Wide-band AM could help from one day to another
For the transition time before the complete introduction of DRM something must be done, too. Wideband-AM would be the sollution. The existing AM standard could be boosted up easily from one day to another and provide half-hifi-sound. Wideband-AM would be up- and downward compatible with all existing receivers. Right now, the audio bandwidth is 4.5 kHz. This is not much better than telephone sound. You can't really enjoy music like that. With 8 kHz it's half-hifi. 8k is the maximum possible because AM carriers are covering the band in 9k-steps. Wideband can be easily be introduced in the daytime Most receivers would play the 8 khz sound already now, because they have a bad selectivity. The old disadvantage becomes the key to a better sound.
Maybe the bandwidth should be increased in the night, too. In the night there is inly the problem that interefering neighbouring channels could interfere with each other. Strong stations would push down the weaker and distant ones, but most people are more interested in their local station with a clear signal anyway. If you suppress one modulation side band, even the interference problem could be solved.
Limit networks with different transmitters to one frequency (simulcasting)
this would lead to less interference
there would be more space for new stations
listeners would know "their" frequency wherever they are
There are networks which use up to 20 frequencies for the same programme. This has historic reasons, but today it leads into chaos. In the old days it was difficult to modulate transmitters exactly simultaneous. As soon as you received two transmitters of one program, there would be a terrible echo. Today with satellite feeds, simulcasting is no problem anymore. So why should these networks waste the frequencies. Listeners appreciate to know their station in one and the same place. This is why networks should only use one frequency. Transmitters should be launched close to every big cities and work with up to 10 kW. Big transmitters over 50 kW in the daytime are a stupid concept anyway because they don't get much further with all the power. One-frequency networks with small-sized transmitters in many cities would reach much more people with a strong signal, because the people are closer to the transmitters then. In the countryside, signals would be the same. This concept already works in England where nation-wide Virgin Radio has many transmitters on 1215 khz (there are also some low power transmitters on other frequencies). As soon as stations join together in the night for a common programme, only one frequency should remain. I'd suggest such a strict regulation because the interference situation at night is the worst.

Mike
2nd October 2002, 18:17
Synchronising groups of MW transmitters onto the same frequency has to be done very carefully if mush type interference. (as evident on Virgin and Talksport in much of Ireland and parts of the UK) is to be avoided having said that two or three frequencies should be sufficent for any network.

I think 6KHz would be a more appropriate audio bandwidth limit (maybe increacing to 7.5KHz during the day). Incidently its not just the bandwidth/selectivity of an AM reciever that affects its audio response. The quality and type of detector stage circuit plays a big part as well. I have a Pioneer Tuner which gives excellent audio on AM but the majority of radios AM is crap and this (rather than the inherent limitations of AM) is what has really killed AM off along with problems of electrical interference and timebase harmonics from poorly designed TV sets. Also the Authorities in most countries refuse to investigate complaints of interference to AM frequencies nowadays.

If AM is ever to be revived there needs to be a serious rethink regarding interference reguulations (AND THEIR ENFORCMENT) also there should be some kind of industry sponsered "quality mark" scheme for radio recievers covering everything from cheap portables and walkmans through to hi Fi equipment (FM listeners could benefit from this too)

021
2nd October 2002, 19:53
"Synchronising groups of MW transmitters onto the same frequency has to be done very carefully if mush type interference"

Its worth mentioning that when BBC radio 1 was on 1089/1053 the synchronisation was better than is the case with Talksport. BBC R5 is better and the best synchronising is with the three BBC R4 TXs on 198LW

"and timebase harmonics from poorly designed TV sets"

What often helps to reduce this type of interference is to put the station slightly off-tune to one side. However unfortunately there is no option of fine tuning in 1khz steps on most digital tuned radios. Being able to manually tune in 1khz steps would also help when trying to hear a weaker station adjacent to a stronger station

"Also the Authorities in most countries refuse to investigate complaints of interference to AM frequencies nowadays. "

I'd be interested in hearing about the areas of the country with ADSL on phonelines, as to what interference this causes to radio reception?

Justin Speck
2nd October 2002, 20:36
Originally posted by 021
"Synchronising groups of MW transmitters onto the same frequency has to be done very carefully if mush type interference"

Its worth mentioning that when BBC radio 1 was on 1089/1053 the synchronisation was better than is the case with Talksport. BBC R5 is better and the best synchronising is with the three BBC R4 TXs on 198LW


Frequency syncronisation is fairly easy these days with GPS but audio syncronising should also be used and I'm not sure that it is.

Interesting that you think TalkSport is not so good as R5L considering the same people maintain both.:) I'm not sure how many txs are actually synchronised. I seem to recall it was only the biggest 5 or 6 and not the lower power ones.

R4LW is, of course, best as it is also a frequency standard.

J

Mosfet
3rd October 2002, 12:54
Quasi-sync is so easy on A.M,you should try it on F.M(+/-5Hz)
Anyway does anyone know what ever came of the C.F.L antenna being built on the Isle of Man for M.W,Havn't heard any news on this in a long time.I really doubt if it could preform any better than a 50ohm load anyway:rolleyes:

Mike
3rd October 2002, 19:22
Id imagine the BBC Radio 4 and 5 abetterynchronised because their public service remit requires them to serve ALL (or as much of as possible) the UK wheras Commercial stations are generally happy to have a good signal in the major cities and arent going to spend too much effort and money trying to reach remote areas that cannot be covered easily

Original Tyrone Gobshite!
3rd October 2002, 23:45
If you think BBC Radio 4 on LW is synchronised well try listening to it here! It is impossible to do so here at night and also during much of the day because the Westerglen and Droitwhich TX's interfer with one another. That's why in some parts of the UK there are fill in TX's on MW mostly in NI, Cumbria, Newcastle and Aberdeen not because of a lack of signal strength but because of an overlap of transmitting areas which interfer with each other. This would not have happened if Westerglen had used 225 KHz instead of 198 KHz.

Also Talksport may be more prone to distortion because most of the big TX's run on bigger powers than they did for BBC Radio 1.

Transmitters 'R' Us
4th October 2002, 17:41
Mike mentioned the need for a review of receiver design. The current crop really cannot do justice to the possible audio reproduction of AM. It is a fact AM can sound every bit as good as FM. It is possible to hear this if any of you ever have the opportunity of listening to AM stereo on a suitable receiver. Yes, they do exist! In fact the strong French LW station broadcasts in stereo but not a lot of people know that. I found a suitable Becker car stereo with stereo AM on eBay. It was made primarily for the US market where AM stereo is allowed though few stations use it. There are also some SW stations using AM stereo.
MOSFET brought up the IOM's CFA. This has been delayed yet again by local opposition. A further meeting of the local authority is I believe imminent. Paul Rusling has more patience that me!
Someone else mentioned if this type of antenna will ever be proved to perform better than a 50R load. Now you should know that it would be beneficial if it did, however the term dummy load is probably more appropriate for this antenna design!

Mike
4th October 2002, 17:54
OTG's right about The Scottish transmitters having been originally allocated 225/227KHz but It was decided to put them on 198/200 Instead in order to reserve 225 for future use.

Now that the Isle of man has turned town 225 in favour of 279 and the Radio Authority has stated that it doesnt intend to use it either maybe the frequency should be given back to the BBC.

Alternatively they could
Shut Westerglen and Burghead, boost Droitwich to at least 1000Kw and drop all the MW relays of Radio 4 (although they may have to put a small one on the Shetland Islands.

As far as I know Poland are no longer using 198KHz so it shouldnt cause problems internationally

Justin Speck
4th October 2002, 20:33
Originally posted by Original Tyrone Gobshite!
If you think BBC Radio 4 on LW is synchronised well try listening to it here!

I think there is some confusion here over what synchronisation is all about. Synchronisation improves reception by allowing co-channel transmitters to cause less interference to each other than would normally be the case. You will still get mush areas where the audio from two transmitters adds destructively. In the early days of synchronisation the BBC employed "mush area correction"; they had receiving stations which would monitor the audio from two adjacent stations (e.g. Westerglen and Droitwich monitored at Newcastle) and provide feedback to adjust the phase of the audio to keep the mush area where they wanted it to be rather than have it wander about as the audio phase drifted. I'm not sure that this is still employed. I think I've got that right but I am willing to be corrected!



Also Talksport may be more prone to distortion because most of the big TX's run on bigger powers than they did for BBC Radio 1.
No they don't; BBC used to quote transmitter powers, the commercials prefer to quote EIRP which, when using directional antennas as the big stations do, is greater than tx power.

Hope this provides some clarification.

J

Original Tyrone Gobshite!
4th October 2002, 20:59
Justin, I think I forgot to add an important piece of punctuation. I sould have said "If you think BBC Radio 4 on LW is synchronised well, try listening to it here!" The signals from Westerglen and Droitwich do seem to add destructively here and those without an FM option usually have to retune to 774 - though few people actually know this.
No they don't; BBC used to quote transmitter powers, the commercials prefer to quote EIRP which, when using directional antennas as the big stations do, is greater than tx power.

Hope this provides some clarification. Cheers!
If you actually look at the following web page http://tx.mb21.co.uk/info/bbc-am/bbc-am.asp you'll notice that in the BBC Light program's days there was only the one LW transmitter based at Droitwich which still got into Central Scotland pretty well, it can be seen that it covers most of NI pretty well too though in West Tyrone the night time limit of fading is borderline. The option of a megawatt TX for Radio 4 LW could well work but there might be problems. The TX for Aberdeen would perhaps have to remain, and a facility at Burghead may also need to remain. Having a small MW TX in Shetland for a few thousand population would be unfeasible and I've never known the BBC to place an AM TX in the remote areas of Scotland. Finally the Icelanders may object to an increased power of 198 KHz with their own station on 189KHz.

Personally I think that 225 KHz is an excellent frequency that the BBC could use for DRM tests for LW.

Justin Speck
6th October 2002, 16:59
you'll notice that in the BBC Light program's days there was only the one LW transmitter based at Droitwich which still got into Central Scotland pretty well

No it didn't! We used to have low power MW relays in the population centres. I think they were ex-wartime 2kW units. On the odd occasions when there was something on LW which was not relayed on these MW txs, I remember my father demanding silence in the house while he tried to pick up scratcy information from Droitwich on whatever boxing or football match it was.

There's a lot of granite about in the Scottish borders and the radiowaves don't like it very much. I haven't got a ground conductivity map to hand but it does attenuate the signals somewhat.

You might well manage to cover Scotland with a MW transmitter but sadly getting it co-ordinated internationally would be virtually impossible. The locals probably wouldn't be too impressed either.

J

Mike
6th October 2002, 19:01
I remember reading somewhere that in the 1960's parts of Scotland couldnt recieve ANY BBC transmissions but the offshore station Radio Scotland came in loud and clear !

A Scottish MP even tried unsuccessfully to put an amendment into the 1967 Marine offences bill stating that the Act wouldnt apply to Scotland until the BBC sorted out their coverage problems

Tabasco
17th October 2002, 13:04
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Transmitters 'R' Us
[B] It is possible to hear this if any of you ever have the opportunity of listening to AM stereo on a suitable receiver. Yes, they do exist! In fact the strong French LW station broadcasts in stereo but not a lot of people know that.

Actually AFAIK, it is France Bleu's Paris transmitter on 864 kHz that is in stereo - it is audiable in Ireland at night
BTW if anyone wants either an AM stereo receiver or an add on board for existing receiver (requires some technical ability to find a place to tap off the 450 kHZ I.F, (not that hard) try
http://www.geocities.com/amstereo2001/

Hissing Sidebands

021
22nd October 2002, 00:19
Justin,
On the subject of bad synchronisation with Talksport transmitters, the problem is on 1089, you get a nasty up and down effect on the audio listening to it at night, due of course to the beat of the slight difference in carrier frequency between some of the TXs on 1089.

Justin Speck
25th October 2002, 17:44
I found out a little bit more about synchronising. It seems that Virgin have gone for a GPS locked system while TalkSPORT still have an old system (possibly what Radio 1 used to have before they left those frequencies?).

I don't know how much effort is put in to keeping theThe TalkSPORT txs within the 0.05Hz that is required but I suspect the problem is that they are not being kept to this level of accuracy any more.

This certainly explains why Talk suffers more than Virgin from beating.

HTH

J

Mike
3rd November 2002, 13:07
Getting back to "the future of MW" given that there are long term plans to phase out most (if not all) of the FM band when DAB becomes universally available and affordable I could see MW actually outliving FM which would be ironic.

I could envisage all Local commercial and National services eventally going to DAB with AM reserved for just one or two national speech services in each country along with a plethora of low powered local community services (which cant readily be accomidated on DAB multiplexes)

With less crowding on the AM band nightime interference may be less of an issue and the local services may even be allowed increaced audio bandwidth (at least during daytime)

On the other hand interference from things like ADSL may cause problems